Why is this happening

[duman444]

I have 2 guns in 10 mm, a 610-2 and a RIA 1911. Took them to range last week and the 610 cylinder was jamming between shots. Would have to give it a smack with a hard plastic ammo box to unlatch cylinder then it would go back in and rotate normally. Noticed about 5-6 dark primers. The 1911 shot normal-no issues with it. When I got home and was cleaning the guns saw the damage to breech face on both guns, but the 1911 may have been there for a while.

Checked the primers, they have a tiny crack in the bottom of the pin indention. Did not save any or get pictures. I am running 8.4 gr of Power Pistol over Remington 2 1/2 large primers with a 180 gr plated flat tip bullet. My Garmin was clocking the bullet at 1,150 FPS out of the 4 inch barrel 610 and 1,160 out of the 5 inch barrel 1911.

I assume the 610 was "spot welding" the primer base to the recoil shield, but seeing as this load is almost a full grain below max, not sure why this is happening?

 

[JohnHL]

Primers not sealing tight in the cases and leaking hot gases?

John?

 

[stansdds]

Oversized primer pockets?

 

[duman444]

I had to buy a bench mounted primer seater to seat the Rem 2 1/2 primers. They are all in TIGHT.

I bought 10,000 of the primers on the last sale when they were under $60 per K. Have used them on 45 colt hot and medium loads, 44 mag med, 44-40 and 41 mag med loads. Have used 3K and the 10 mm is the only place I am seeing this issue.

 

[Snapping Twig]

The disc that surrounds the hammer nose in the image is... completely gone. Must replace.

 

[WR Moore]

Checked the primers, they have a tiny crack in the bottom of the pin indention. Did not save any or get pictures. I am running 8.4 gr of Power Pistol over Remington 2 1/2 large primers with a 180 gr plated flat tip bullet. My Garmin was clocking the bullet at 1,150 FPS out of the 4 inch barrel 610 and 1,160 out of the 5 inch barrel 1911.

but seeing as this load is almost a full grain below max, not sure why this is happening?

First, you mention that the primers have a tiny crack in the pin indent. Check your firing pins, the ends are supposed to be round, without sharp points. If you've got a crack in the primer indent, you have gas leakage that's eroding the breech face. May be a defect in the primer cup material that's allowing perforation of the cup. Just as a start, if your pin noses are properly shaped, you should try another brand of primer. I've used that same load (varies a bit 8.22-8.4 gr) with WWLPs and XTPs without issue.

Also, just because the load data is safe in the load manual doesn't mean it's safe in your particular gun. Those case head markings on the recoil shield suggest things aren't business as usual. My 70's era model 28 doesn't have marking like that.

 

[rockquarry]

I have a pre-war Model 70 Winchester that I bought in 1964, my first rifle. Still have it. It's been fired a great deal, especially after having it re-barreled and chambered for the then-wildcat .25-06 in 1965. Somewhere along the line, the hot handloads of a new handloader slightly pitted the bolt face. Primer leaks, I suppose. Recommended balls-to-the-wall loads were a bit warmer than today and they were not pressure tested.

The harm was done, but it seemed to have had no real effect on anything. I still shoot the rifle occasionally. If pitting is really bad, I think most bolt faces can be bushed.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

The disc that surrounds the hammer nose in the image is... completely gone. Must replace.

You gotta explain that.........The auto has NO bushing and the bushing on the revolver is staked in place.......Not missing.

 

[David Sinko]

The firing pin bushing in the 610 is damaged but it can be replaced. The damage seems unusual for a "hot" load; if you're piercing primers the damage should be to the tip of the firing pin and the inner part of the bushing. Is it possible that the bushing had been protruding too far and was interfering with the rotation of the cylinder?

 

[duman444]

If the bushing is interfering with the cylinder rotation, its only doing it after the shell has been fired. Rotates normally with unfired bullets in place, I cannot feel the bushing protruding with my finger, and I lightly ran a file across it to see if it catches any material and it seems flush or slightly recessed. I agree about the damage being too far out in diameter on both guns to seem to be from pierced primers but what else could cause that type of damage?

In reply to an earlier thread, both guns HAVE been shot with hotter loads, thus the shell base imprint on the recoil shields. I do remember the 610 being finnicky in advance the time I shot it before but never had to impact cylinder to get it to release.

I do have some Winchester LPP, will try them on next loads and may drop charge or change powders.

 

[JRD]

Both guns show significant damage from erosion of gas leaking around the primers. This is different than piercing a primer on the center at the firing pin indent. To have gas leakage around the perimeter of the primer means something is wrong and there is too much gas pressure for the primer cup to contain.

Whether the damage is from prior loads you have shot or is from your current recipe, I can't tell from my keyboard, but you need to take a careful look at your recently fired brass. Whatever ammo you shot that caused the damage in both guns I'm betting has black soot around the primers and signs of gas leakage.

In whatever ammo caused those problems (and it looks like you shot plenty of it in both guns) there is something wrong in your combination of cases, primers, or powder that is causing the high pressure gas leakage.

The cylinder binding in the 610 is certainly due to your primer flowing into those erosion caused voids in the firing pin bushing. Take a careful look at your fired brass. I bet you will see asperities in the primer surface that interfered with your cylinder rotation.

 

[gwpercle]

" Tiny crack in the bottom of the firing pin indentation "
Quite possibly the primer cup metal was on the thin side ...
My fix would be CCI primers , if you reload ... If not try another brand of ammo... the 10mm is on the high pressure side and primers with thin cups just don't work well .
I had a batch of Alcan primers that were prone to cracking and could only use them in low pressure loads .
Don't "Fix" either of ypour guns ... they may not be broken ...
I suspecting thin / brittle primer cups ... CCI are your best bet .
Load Safe,
Gary

 

[taz666]

Both guns show significant damage from erosion of gas leaking around the primers. This is different than piercing a primer on the center at the firing pin indent. To have gas leakage around the perimeter of the primer means something is wrong and there is too much gas pressure for the primer cup to contain.

Whether the damage is from prior loads you have shot or is from your current recipe, I can't tell from my keyboard, but you need to take a careful look at your recently fired brass. Whatever ammo you shot that caused the damage in both guns I'm betting has black soot around the primers and signs of gas leakage.

In whatever ammo caused those problems (and it looks like you shot plenty of it in both guns) there is something wrong is your combination of cases, primers, or powder that is causing the high pressure gas leakage.

The cylinder binding in the 610 is certainly due to your primer flowing into those erosion caused voids in the firing pin bushing. Take a careful look at your fired brass. I bet you will see asperities in the primer surface that interfered with your cylinder rotation.

Hard not to agree with JRD here. Would have been great to examine the fired primers and cases. The primer may have shown some collapse which might explain the small crack you witnessed at the firing pin indent. The interior case pressure may have shoved the primer back into the firing pin cracking the primer cup.