Yup there are small thinkers out there, we all have to/should be honest about our "works". I believe those on this forum are up to that character. Those others are ultimately known. I just remove the box label and state its "correct" & not "original" in my data file. Easy to do and I sleep well.
the Box craze and accessories
- Thread starter AudieMurphy
- Start date
I *really* want original stocks.
And yet back in the day I pulled them off every revolver I bought to replace them, usually with Pachmayrs. Most, if not all, went into the trash.
I don’t understand me, either.
hdfinder47
Member
Bought an old K frame 22 with box and papers back in the 80's - great shape and a crazy smooth/light action job. Jeweled hammer and trigger. Sold it to a good friend years later and forgot I had the box/papers. Several years after the sale I came across the box but when I called to give it to him he had sold the gun. Oh well, at least I got a nice old K22 blue box!
javbike
Member
I am guilty of that it’s a hobby within a hobby like others said .
The Mahogany presentation cases used in the shipment of the N frame guns form 1960-1983 is probably the easiest box to portray as "original". There is only one possible way to prove a particular gun was originally sold in the period correct Mahogany case and that is if the original cardboard shipping container is included! A factory letter might state the gun was shipped in a presentation case, however there were 4 different types of interior liners used during that time period and not all models in the N frame series were shipped in a case.
I will proudly state that all of my boxes are original (except for the ones from the wrong year, the ones missing the label, the ones with other serial numbers, the ones the wrong color, the ones with repro inserts, the ones with styrofoam inserts instead of plastic liners, the ones from N frames that fit loose with K frames guns and the ones I made myself).
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Here's a response that I posted to a similar thread a while back...
I'll weigh in on this - as I feel passionate about the topic. I'll post a few photos to illustrate my points.
I collect guns and I collect boxes. I like them both. I also collect paperwork and tools that shipped with the guns, because I like them. I collect period boxed ammo and advertisements related to the guns I collect, once again because I like that "stuff". I like the history that all of the items collectively and individually represent. Of course I have extra love for guns and boxes that appear to have been shipped together (matching numbers etc...), but I don't get too worked up if the numbers do not match. It is also impossible to prove that a specific piece of tissue paper, vapor paper, Helpful Hints pamphlet, tan caution notice, green warranty notice, SAT, swab, brush, instruction manual, etc. shipped with a specific gun and I do not try to prove it. Factory paperwork and tools were not numbered to specific guns (with the exception of Texas Ranger commemorative Knives, certain warranty cards, and registration cards that were oft times mailed back to the factory). I imagine there were bins and stacks of the goodies that some final shipping clerk inserted in a box as a gun was prepared to ship. Also, I think it is important to remember and note that unlike specific gun parts (e.g. sights, cylinders, frames, barrels, grips, yokes...) that were fit/filed/sanded/polished to a finished gun and stamped and numbered to that specific gun, boxes were NOT fitted to a specific gun, rather guns were placed into boxes they fit in and those boxes (usually designed or labeled to house a specific model) were numbered somewhere on their exterior to a specific gun so that someone down the line did not have to open the box to determine what gun was placed inside it.
Here are some K-22s on boxes, some of which number to the period correct boxes, others do not.
I very much appreciate "complete" or mostly complete packages (gun, box, tools, other goodies) whether they were assembled as they left the factory, or by some thoughtful collector at a later date. I try to keep them together so that when my kids sell or distribute my collection someone else can enjoy them (hopefully as much as I have). I collect S&Ws because I love them.
This early K-22 Outdoorsman box and frame numbers match.
This RM box and gun do not have matching numbers. (But seriously - just how many small pre-war magnum boxes have you seen? - me... less than a handful)
There are unscrupulous people over the years who have faked labels, written different numbers on the bottoms of boxes in grease pencil, or replaced a little white piece of tape on the bottom of a pre-war "picture box" to inflate the value of their "package". That is wrong and detestable. On the other side, there are also boxes where the adhesive on the labels failed, grease pencil that wore off, pencil that faded, and white tape that became so worn that the numbers are no longer legible, so I have no clue as to whether those boxes currently house the exact gun that was placed there at the factory and I do not represent that it does. So even on the packages that I have that include all components that have matching numbers, I cannot guarantee that they shipped together when they left the factory.
I also love custom cases and I have several of those. They are pricey, but they really make me smile.
Custom Leather Wrapped Huey Case with matching Phil Quigley engraved pre-27s, sporting Keith Brown grips.
Custom Glenn Dean Myrtlewood Case with matching Phil Quigley engraved SAAs.
Glenn Dean Birdseye Maple Case with factory Class B engraved and nickeled 357 Magnums.
If a collector only collects guns that have boxes clearly numbered to the guns, I would expect that he/she will most likely end up with a pretty small, but nice collection, as those "complete packages" (particularly for older guns) are rare, usually do not trade hands very often, and are generally very pricey when they do trade hands.
I love the guns that are Safe Queens and I love the ones that have a bunch of history on them. I generally do not get too worked up about provenance of a specific gun and in general will not pay extra for it. I shoot the ones that have history on them and find them as interesting (but far less pricey) than the safe queens. I also collect ones that have been tastefully modified by previous owners - and taste is subjective and subject to change... I have even had some "modified"/engraved myself and I love them.
Modified/Engraved K-22 Outdoorsman in non matching, period correct box.
I am also glad that we all do not think alike on this topic and I enjoy and value the perspective of the members of this forum, even when those perspectives differ from mine.
My $0.02,
I'll weigh in on this - as I feel passionate about the topic. I'll post a few photos to illustrate my points.
I collect guns and I collect boxes. I like them both. I also collect paperwork and tools that shipped with the guns, because I like them. I collect period boxed ammo and advertisements related to the guns I collect, once again because I like that "stuff". I like the history that all of the items collectively and individually represent. Of course I have extra love for guns and boxes that appear to have been shipped together (matching numbers etc...), but I don't get too worked up if the numbers do not match. It is also impossible to prove that a specific piece of tissue paper, vapor paper, Helpful Hints pamphlet, tan caution notice, green warranty notice, SAT, swab, brush, instruction manual, etc. shipped with a specific gun and I do not try to prove it. Factory paperwork and tools were not numbered to specific guns (with the exception of Texas Ranger commemorative Knives, certain warranty cards, and registration cards that were oft times mailed back to the factory). I imagine there were bins and stacks of the goodies that some final shipping clerk inserted in a box as a gun was prepared to ship. Also, I think it is important to remember and note that unlike specific gun parts (e.g. sights, cylinders, frames, barrels, grips, yokes...) that were fit/filed/sanded/polished to a finished gun and stamped and numbered to that specific gun, boxes were NOT fitted to a specific gun, rather guns were placed into boxes they fit in and those boxes (usually designed or labeled to house a specific model) were numbered somewhere on their exterior to a specific gun so that someone down the line did not have to open the box to determine what gun was placed inside it.
Here are some K-22s on boxes, some of which number to the period correct boxes, others do not.
I very much appreciate "complete" or mostly complete packages (gun, box, tools, other goodies) whether they were assembled as they left the factory, or by some thoughtful collector at a later date. I try to keep them together so that when my kids sell or distribute my collection someone else can enjoy them (hopefully as much as I have). I collect S&Ws because I love them.
This early K-22 Outdoorsman box and frame numbers match.
This RM box and gun do not have matching numbers. (But seriously - just how many small pre-war magnum boxes have you seen? - me... less than a handful)
There are unscrupulous people over the years who have faked labels, written different numbers on the bottoms of boxes in grease pencil, or replaced a little white piece of tape on the bottom of a pre-war "picture box" to inflate the value of their "package". That is wrong and detestable. On the other side, there are also boxes where the adhesive on the labels failed, grease pencil that wore off, pencil that faded, and white tape that became so worn that the numbers are no longer legible, so I have no clue as to whether those boxes currently house the exact gun that was placed there at the factory and I do not represent that it does. So even on the packages that I have that include all components that have matching numbers, I cannot guarantee that they shipped together when they left the factory.
I also love custom cases and I have several of those. They are pricey, but they really make me smile.
Custom Leather Wrapped Huey Case with matching Phil Quigley engraved pre-27s, sporting Keith Brown grips.
Custom Glenn Dean Myrtlewood Case with matching Phil Quigley engraved SAAs.
Glenn Dean Birdseye Maple Case with factory Class B engraved and nickeled 357 Magnums.
If a collector only collects guns that have boxes clearly numbered to the guns, I would expect that he/she will most likely end up with a pretty small, but nice collection, as those "complete packages" (particularly for older guns) are rare, usually do not trade hands very often, and are generally very pricey when they do trade hands.
I love the guns that are Safe Queens and I love the ones that have a bunch of history on them. I generally do not get too worked up about provenance of a specific gun and in general will not pay extra for it. I shoot the ones that have history on them and find them as interesting (but far less pricey) than the safe queens. I also collect ones that have been tastefully modified by previous owners - and taste is subjective and subject to change... I have even had some "modified"/engraved myself and I love them.
Modified/Engraved K-22 Outdoorsman in non matching, period correct box.
I am also glad that we all do not think alike on this topic and I enjoy and value the perspective of the members of this forum, even when those perspectives differ from mine.
My $0.02,
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kwill1911
Member
No offense to anyone, but I think the original premise is wrong, at least for serious collectors. Why wouldn't you want the original box and contents? And, if they aren't available, you look for period/model correct replacements. As long as they are not misrepresented if/when sold then where is the issue? If you are talking about flippers that put a package together and resell as all original then that is fraud and no one here condones that.
Superb Post, Richard!
Larry
Larry
Richard, very thoughtful post. I usually enjoy what you write. Pictures of your collection are a big bonus.
I worked in a sporting goods store from the mid 70's thru the late 80's. When we sold any firearm we were adamant that the owner take the box and keep it. They were told that if they ever sold the gun it would be worth more if they had the original box. Advice that holds very true today. Although I changed the grips on a number of my S&W's I also retained the original grips for the same reason. Maybe we were ahead of our time.
Of all the photos Richard posted above, what blew me away was the birdseye maple carved display case and the burl colt case (amboyna?). The artistry of those cases is phenomenal.
To put together a collection like this takes a lot more than just money. It is an effort few of us will ever experience.
To put together a collection like this takes a lot more than just money. It is an effort few of us will ever experience.
The SAA Case is a beautiful Burled Myrtlewood and it is even more beautiful in person (note: I updated the descriptions of the cases in the post above). Glenn Dean does a great job!!!
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All my S&W collection guns are in boxes and stacked on the shelves of my safes! Some are in original boxes, period correct boxes, and some in any box I had on hand! All of these boxes have end labels on them! Some labels are original, and others are repro labels but all of them describe the guns inside. From RK mesa's picture above, imagine going to his safe and looking for a specific gun if all of those were in gun rugs stacked high on the shelves! The point here is, do you own 2 guns or 200 guns? Each and every person's needs are different. do what works for you! ! !
You don't have to imagine, Joe...Here is my own safe with my own method of storage - silicone treated socks tagged with my own numbering system...A select few here have seen it for themselves and can testify to my madness...
...Ben
'79 Magnum GT
Member
All those socks with the little tags crack me up! Bet they work really well though. Are those tags reusable? I don't think I've ever seen them before.You don't have to imagine, Joe...Here is my own safe with my own method of storage - silicone treated socks tagged with my own numbering system...A select few here have seen it for themselves and can testify to my madness...
View attachment 779199
Rick
I have saved the packaging and tools from every handgun that I purchased new. My retirement gift to myself years ago was a pristine two inch model 15 complete with the original box and paperwork but it was missing the tools. I obtained period appropriate replacement tools and put them in the box. The set is now complete. Since to tools aren’t serialized to the gun (like the box) I feel I have a complete original set. IMHO.
All part of the hobby.
Yes, they are...I leave them on the socks and change the numbered stickers when necessary...I bought a seemingly lifetime supply from Amazon for minimum $$$...
...BenNot so fast there.
While a screwdriver may be $1.50, a SAT may be $150 or $1,500.
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