So… is the Beretta M9 still the Worst?

Claymore33 said:
Grip too large, SEALS testers said slide cracked after a few thousand rounds. Someone who you were holding at gunpoint could reach over and grab slide and remove it in one motion.
Click to expand...
Grips too large? I agree.

Slide cracking was traced to out of spec ammo, I believe.

Perp takedown was eliminated by an added locking button that had to be pressed to rotate the takedown lever.
 
Riposte1 said:
I do understand those who actually experienced 1911 stoppages, from the 1980s on. I was actually on a contract to figure out why they were experiencing malfunctions and damaged guns. I met with an engineer from Picitinny Arsenal at Ft. Knox (a meeting aranged by a good friend who had been an armorer at the Weapons Pool since around 1970 when he retruned from Vietnam).

We tracked it to two sources - one was ammo - I took a chronograph with me and we fired 50 rounds of TZZ issue ball - the average velocity was 950 fps with a high of near 1100! That ammo was made in Israel (perhaps with American components?) and after subsequent investigaton it was determined that the bullet pull was excessive due to the high temps the ammo was in while it made the trip across the ocean). That sort of explained the damaged pistols (which weren't many). BTW the average number of rounds these pistols had were 440,000 rounds each - that is only since my friend took over as armorer - there were no existing records he could find of how many total rounds they fired - the newest pistol was made in 1945 but there were some there made as early as 1912.

When it came to the reputation for stoppages, mostly failures to feed, I had asked my friend for a sample barrel they used for replacment (those too were Israeli) - they were chrome lined and looked good all except for the feedway which was a simple ~3/8" cut - I could immediately see this would never work so I set out with a dremel tool to reproduce a WW-I feedway cut which is a compound radius you cannot achieve with one cut - or at least I couldn't. As an aside, my very first AMT Hardballer had the same cut - it would not feed hardball!

We had an excellent opportunity to test, there was a Batallion going through pistol qual, the process was to run 20 soldiers through each lane (there were 30 lanes) using the same pistol on each lane - the course was 10 rounds fam-fire and 40 rounds for the qual therefore each pistol on the line fired exactly 1000 rounds that day - it didn't take as long as one might think, and not surprisingly we saw a lot of stoppages.

So after the qual was over we stepped up and the instructors for that qual remained as wittnesss and I installed my modified barrel - I then procended to fire 10 magazines through the pistol pretty fast (I am fairly quick) - No stoppages! I heard a comment from the instructors - I never saw one work that long!

The engineer from Picatinny had brought his own modified barrel - it was done a little different but it worked as well. He also brought the contract blueprint for the barrels - the Army had sent the wrong configuration and IMI had cut them exactly as ordered!

Another problem was the recoil springs - they too were a contract part and my friend showed me they cost 5 cents each - every one of those guns (30) that had gone 1000 rounds had to have the recoil spring replaced at the end of the class.

This is a far cry from the WW-II contract which required and inspector to fire one pistol out of every lot of 5,000 pistols for a test of 5,000 rounds - if there was one stoppage the whole lot of 5,000 pistols was rejected (there was the exception that if a lot failed the inspector could take a second pistol and fire 5000 rounds through it) - this information is available in Scott Meadows U.S. Military Automatics Vol. II (https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Military-Automatic-Pistols-1920/dp/B003L3UBG6).

Well I've rambled about enough!

Riposte

PS, the Army had just selected the M9 to replace the 1911. I asked the engineer what he thought and he said "Somebody ought to go to jail over this - they "bought" the contract".
Click to expand...
Yes that is what heard and that is why SIg and SMITH sued.
 
Claymore33 said:
Grip too large, SEALS testers said slide cracked after a few thousand rounds. Someone who you were holding at gunpoint could reach over and grab slide and remove it in one motion.
Click to expand...
The slide thing was true. As to the slide grab anecdote, I always used to hear that but never saw it actually demonstrated. It could be argued that a long string of things have already gone wrong if the suspect is close enough to think he can make that grab. That said, I was always taught that regardless of gun type the corrective action when an aggressor reaches for your weapon is to pull the trigger.
 
Last edited:
Muley Gil said:
I did my 5 years with Dyn as well.

When the State Department decided to issue handguns to the Afghan police, we received a bunch of S&W Sigma 9mms. The ammo we were shipped for the Afghans was actually newer than the stuff our staff was carrying. There was a rumor going around at the time that some of the ammo was swapped out. :D
Click to expand...

Close, they were SD9VE's that got issued out to ANP. I know it's a little bit of hair splitting, but the SD9VE's are better than what the Sigma's were for sure.
 
Golddollar said:
I can confirm this. An old gun dealer friend of mine showed me with the gun in my hand.
Click to expand...
Golddollar said:
I can confirm this. An old gun dealer friend of mine showed me with the gun in my hand.
Click to expand...
You're probably more likely to get struck by lightning three times in the same week at different locations before the slide grab would happen.
 
I've tried M9 a couple times. It's OK. Beretta has been making guns for something like 400 years. I suspect they know what they are doing.

My experience is that military guns tend to be manufactured more for reliability rather than accuracy. Clearances are greater and groove diameters often push the maximum. For instance, I slugged several Browning Hi-Power barrels and found groove diameters running 0.359 to 0.360; A little loose for 9mm. My Colt Government Model Series 70 that I purchased new is far more accurate than any 1911 I fired in service.

For service weapons, I'm especially fond of my Smith & Wesson 39-2 for concealed carry.
 
Claymore33 said:
Someone who you were holding at gunpoint could reach over and grab slide and remove it in one motion.
Click to expand...
Have you ever seen anyone perform that trick in real life? I've seen people try, when that urban legend came up with a group of Marines and someone said "prove it." Each of us took turns with an unloaded M9, and nobody could do it unless the holder of the gun literally stood there and did nothing while the "aggressor" manipulated the takedown controls. As far as snatching the slide off the top of the gun from someone who really wants to keep it, I think that would be a great way to get shot. Maybe it worked once in a Steven Seagal movie or something.
 
eclayton said:
Have you ever seen anyone perform that trick in real life? I've seen people try, when that urban legend came up with a group of Marines and someone said "prove it." Each of us took turns with an unloaded M9, and nobody could do it unless the holder of the gun literally stood there and did nothing while the "aggressor" manipulated the takedown controls. As far as snatching the slide off the top of the gun from someone who really wants to keep it, I think that would be a great way to get shot. Maybe it worked once in a Steven Seagal movie or something.
Click to expand...
I often find sage advice from respected online firearms experts hard to replicate.
 
eclayton said:
Have you ever seen anyone perform that trick in real life? I've seen people try, when that urban legend came up with a group of Marines and someone said "prove it." Each of us took turns with an unloaded M9, and nobody could do it unless the holder of the gun literally stood there and did nothing while the "aggressor" manipulated the takedown controls. As far as snatching the slide off the top of the gun from someone who really wants to keep it, I think that would be a great way to get shot. Maybe it worked once in a Steven Seagal movie or something.
Click to expand...
In theory it could be done with the original Beretta 92 (pre M9) because the takedown lever had no locking detent. IIRC, one of the changes required to make an M9 was the addition of a detent button that had to be pressed to rotate the takedown lever.
 
Last edited:
You know they do make a low profile disassembly lever for 92's, right?
 
Changing the subject a bit if your revolver is in double action and a bad guy with big and strong hands grabbed it tight across the top strap and cylinder it would be difficult/impossible to fire it. Warned about this in basic LE back in 1970s. You protect your firearm at all costs. Never let a dangerous person get face to face that close with your gun drawn. If you revolver or pistol is drawn on someone you better be ready immediately to shoot at agreessive action.
Just saying.
 
Jay Dee said:
I've tried M9 a couple times. It's OK. Beretta has been making guns for something like 400 years. I suspect they know what they are doing.

My experience is that military guns tend to be manufactured more for reliability rather than accuracy. Clearances are greater and groove diameters often push the maximum. For instance, I slugged several Browning Hi-Power barrels and found groove diameters running 0.359 to 0.360; A little loose for 9mm. My Colt Government Model Series 70 that I purchased new is far more accurate than any 1911 I fired in service.

For service weapons, I'm especially fond of my Smith & Wesson 39-2 for concealed carry.
Click to expand...
I read a reloading article in one of the gun magazines. The author purported from his empirical research, the bore diameter of 9mm firearms were .357-.358 not .355-.356. Now since I was 15 years old (62 years) I have been loading .355-.356 dia bullets.
 
SASFixer said:
I read a reloading article in one of the gun magazines. The author purported from his empirical research, the bore diameter of 9mm firearms were .357-.358 not .355-.356. Now since I was 15 years old (62 years) I have been loading .355-.356 dia bullets.
Click to expand...
Jacketed or lead bullets?
 
VaTom said:
Changing the subject a bit if your revolver is in double action and a bad guy with big and strong hands grabbed it tight across the top strap and cylinder it would be difficult/impossible to fire it. Warned about this in basic LE back in 1970s. You protect your firearm at all costs. Never let a dangerous person get face to face that close with your gun drawn. If you revolver or pistol is drawn on someone you better be ready immediately to shoot at agreessive action.
Just saying.
Click to expand...

That one is absolutely true. If you pull the trigger hard enough, you'll break the lockwork (most likely the hand) in your revolver before you overcome the friction of even a relatively light grip wrapped around the cylinder. Same if you tried to pull the trigger inside a well-fitting leather holster that grips the outside of the cylinder. Small parts will break before the cylinder rotates.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top