.44 special brass dimensions and custom expander design....

[kadams]

Hello folks,

If any of you have experience with .44 special brass and custom expanders I am looking for some info, My bullets are 215gr. hollow base wadcutters sized .4315. My NOE expander expands the cases to .4295 When i seat the bullets in the star line .44 special brass the base of the bullet at the hollow base portion is getting sized down to .429. I'm getting best accuracy at the top end of powder charges in a few different loads I'm thinking I may be missing out on some accuracy. I believe the max powder charges are blowing the hollow base back out and the lesser charges are not achieving obturation? To solve this I'm working on designing a custom expander. I'm wondering if any of you may know how deeply i can expand the case without causing a bump in the case Where the case begins to get thicker? I can only measure the brass wall thickness about .360" deep and the brass thickness is uniform to that depth. I need to get another .130-40" in depth to expand the brass deep enough that it doesn't swage down the hollow base of the bullet. So I need to expand the brass .490-500" deep If any of you have done something similar I would like to know your experience and outcome.

Thankyou for any info.

 

[Alk8944]

Just a suggestion. Try loading without sizing the cases, just bell the case mouth. The .4315 bullet may fit the case well enough without sizing. I have done this in the past. he other possibility is what is the diameter of your cylinder throats? Sizing the bullets to match the throats may solve the issue that concerns you.

 

[jem102]

There may be enough on an M die expander mandrel that a machine shop could turn it to the dimensions you want and reform the bell. They may chamber OK but extraction problems may result especially with heavy loads as you are, in a sense, un-sizing the case. If you have a drill press, are handy with a draw file and sandpaper you could probably turn one out yourself that would be good enough to try and then have one machined if it works for your needs. I don't think the expanders are file hard but they may be.

 

[kadams]

Just a suggestion. Try loading without sizing the cases, just bell the case mouth. The .4315 bullet may fit the case well enough without sizing. I have done this in the past. he other possibility is what is the diameter of your cylinder throats? Sizing the bullets to match the throats may solve the issue that concerns you.

I will try some unsized brass, Thanks for suggestion. The bullets are sized to fit through the cvlinder throats with slight finder pressure so im good there.

 

[kadams]

There may be enough on an M die expander mandrel that a machine shop could turn it to the dimensions you want and reform the bell. They may chamber OK but extraction problems may result especially with heavy loads as you are, in a sense, un-sizing the case. If you have a drill press, are handy with a draw file and sandpaper you could probably turn one out yourself that would be good enough to try and then have one machined if it works for your needs. I don't think the expanders are file hard but they may be.

I have a machinist that will cut the expander to my specs. I'm just trying to insure my specs will be functional and not cause other problems.

 

[kadams]

Just a suggestion. Try loading without sizing the cases, just bell the case mouth. The .4315 bullet may fit the case well enough without sizing. I have done this in the past. he other possibility is what is the diameter of your cylinder throats? Sizing the bullets to match the throats may solve the issue that concerns you.

I just tried seating a couple dummy rds. for a test with no primer they seat fine and when pulled have not swaged the bases!!!, the rounds cycle in the revolver with no issues hopefully the crimp will keep them from walking out when firing I am only shooting them about 850FPS, What was your experience after the second firing do they expand larger again under the pressure of firing and need to be resized? after a second firing? Thanks for the tip I will at least get to check on the accuracy of the unswaged bases without buying the custom expander to find out.

 

[Dan W. Cady]

I just tried seating a couple dummy rds. for a test with no primer they seat fine and when pulled have not swaged the bases!!!, the rounds cycle in the revolver with no issues hopefully the crimp will keep them from walking out when firing I am only shooting them about 850FPS, What was your experience after the second firing do they expand larger again under the pressure of firing and need to be resized? after a second firing? Thanks for the tip I will at least get to check on the accuracy of the unswaged bases without buying the custom expander to find out.

Watch the pressure with hollow base bullets. It's possible to blow the skirts off the bullet and and they will be left in the barrel. Barrel obstruction.

 

[kadams]

Watch the pressure with hollow base bullets. It's possible to blow the skirts off the bullet and and they will be left in the barrel. Barrel obstruction.

thanks for info, I have pushed them over 1000fps and not had any problem, they are cast wheel weights not swaged so I don't think ill have a problem.

 

[rockquarry]

I just tried seating a couple dummy rds. for a test with no primer they seat fine and when pulled have not swaged the bases!!!, the rounds cycle in the revolver with no issues hopefully the crimp will keep them from walking out when firing I am only shooting them about 850FPS, What was your experience after the second firing do they expand larger again under the pressure of firing and need to be resized? after a second firing? Thanks for the tip I will at least get to check on the accuracy of the unswaged bases without buying the custom expander to find out.

You might be able to go several loadings without a full-length resizing, but that's based on my experience with bottleneck rifle cartridges that require a full-length sizing after about five loadings.

 

[kadams]

You might be able to go several loadings without a full-length resizing, but that's based on my experience with bottleneck rifle cartridges that require a full-length sizing after about five loadings.

thanks Im going to give it a go

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I'm wondering if any of you may know how deeply i can expand the case without causing a bump in the case Where the case begins to get thicker? I can only measure the brass wall thickness about .360" deep and the brass thickness is uniform to that depth. So I need to expand the brass .490-500" deep

.
Sounds like going the "unsized" route may be what you need.

To answer your original question though, I checked some of my 44 Special brass, Starline & R-P, to see what that depth is.

Using my pin gage set (.425" was the largest size that easily inserted) on the sized brass I found the pin gage stopped at ~.588" in the S-L brass & ~.673" in the R-P brass.

Don't know what brand you have. Obviously the brand makes a difference though.

Forty-four Special is a hoot!

(The R-P brass has the case cannelure, the S-L doesn't)
.



.

 

[kadams]

Thanks for that info! I'm using star-line for my load testing and "accuracy" loads and i have a number of other mixed brass I use. So it looks like it has .588" depth until the brass gets thicker, thats perfect I'd like to expand the case to .431 down to about .500 depth. i was expanding .429 to a depth of .330 using an m-die expander and it was swaging the hollow bases to .429 as i mentioned above, I'm looking forward to shooting some of the unsized brass in the .44 special to see what improvements i get if any. Its been an interesting education in casting a handloading as compared to reloading jacketed ammo, But I have gotten better accuracy with cast in my .44's and 357's using cast bullets, I did end up using the head stamps with the thinnest case walls I could find for my .38 hbwc's to solve the same problem. And yes the .44 special is a hoot I'm shooting a 6 1/2" 24-3. And really enjoying it. I have a few magnums, the 24-3 is my first .44 special.
'

 

[kadams]

.
Sounds like going the "unsized" route may be what you need.

To answer your original question though, I checked some of my 44 Special brass, Starline & R-P, to see what that depth is.

Using my pin gage set (.425" was the largest size that easily inserted) on the sized brass I found the pin gage stopped at ~.588" in the S-L brass & ~.673" in the R-P brass.

Don't know what brand you have. Obviously the brand makes a difference though.

Forty-four Special is a hoot!

(The R-P brass has the case cannelure, the S-L doesn't)
.



.

What's the diameter of the cylinder throats on that 396 out of curiosity?

 

[Forrest r]

Another option is to customize a lee fcd by opening it up to your desired diameter.

Clean brass, prime and flare the unsized case mouth. Add powder and seat the hbwc. Then run everything up into the customized lee fcd. This is how the factory makes there ammo.

FWIW:
A hb bullet will expand to fill those oversized throats even if you size that hbwc to .429" and shoot them in those .432" cylinders. The tell tail is no leading in the bbl. I've showed these pics before, a hb swc that I cast (8/9bhn) and then put a hp in. Used 15.5gr of 2400 (+/- 18,000psi load) and shot out of a snubnosed 44spl.

A side view of that same recovered bullet.

Got 2 things going on.
1. Kind of hard to blow the skirt off of a cast hb bullet.
2. If you look at the side view of the recovered bullet you can clearly see the bullets base has expanded/flared.

I had my best accuracy in my 624 (.432" throats) when I sized my cast 220gr hbwc's to .432" and seated them so they were crimped in the top lube groove. This put the .432" body of the hbwc in the throat of the .432" leade in the chambers of the cylinders. Only tested @ 25yds but I had several loads that easily did +/- 1" at that distance.

 

[kadams]

Another option is to customize a lee fcd by opening it up to your desired diameter.

Clean brass, prime and flare the unsized case mouth. Add powder and seat the hbwc. Then run everything up into the customized lee fcd. This is how the factory makes there ammo.

FWIW:
A hb bullet will expand to fill those oversized throats even if you size that hbwc to .429" and shoot them in those .432" cylinders. The tell tail is no leading in the bbl. I've showed these pics before, a hb swc that I cast (8/9bhn) and then put a hp in. Used 15.5gr of 2400 (+/- 18,000psi load) and shot out of a snubnosed 44spl.

A side view of that same recovered bullet.

Got 2 things going on.
1. Kind of hard to blow the skirt off of a cast hb bullet.
2. If you look at the side view of the recovered bullet you can clearly see the bullets base has expanded/flared.

I had my best accuracy in my 624 (.432" throats) when I sized my cast 220gr hbwc's to .432" and seated them so they were crimped in the top lube groove. This put the .432" body of the hbwc in the throat of the .432" leade in the chambers of the cylinders. Only tested @ 25yds but I had several loads that easily did +/- 1" at that distance.

I'm sizing to fit the throats at .4315, and seating in the top lube groove, recently tried the bottom groove and accuracy was same. Im getting 21/4 inch 6 shot groups at 35 yds from a rest , with the cast HBWC, 240 grain GC do a bit better but take more time,$, lead, powder to assemble. I am just curious if i can get same accuracy from HBWC, for less effort and lower powder charges.

 

[rockquarry]

I'm sizing to fit the throats at .4315, and seating in the top lube groove, recently tried the bottom groove and accuracy was same. Im getting 21/4 inch 6 shot groups at 35 yds from a rest , with the cast HBWC, 240 grain GC do a bit better but take more time,$, lead, powder to assemble. I am just curious if i can get same accuracy from HBWC, for less effort and lower powder charges.

I like accurate loads but am not an obsessive perfectionist. I'd be happy with your 35 yard groups and congratulations for shooting at a distance where you can actually determine real and meaningful accuracy.

 

['79 Magnum GT]

Thanks for that info! I'm using star-line for my load testing and "accuracy" loads and i have a number of other mixed brass I use. So it looks like it has .588" depth until the brass gets thicker, thats perfect I'd like to expand the case to .431 down to about .500 depth. i was expanding .429 to a depth of .330 using an m-die expander and it was swaging the hollow bases to .429 as i mentioned above, I'm looking forward to shooting some of the unsized brass in the .44 special to see what improvements i get if any. Its been an interesting education in casting a handloading as compared to reloading jacketed ammo, But I have gotten better accuracy with cast in my .44's and 357's using cast bullets, I did end up using the head stamps with the thinnest case walls I could find for my .38 hbwc's to solve the same problem. And yes the .44 special is a hoot I'm shooting a 6 1/2" 24-3. And really enjoying it. I have a few magnums, the 24-3 is my first .44 special.
'

"I'm shooting a 6 1/2" 24-3."

Is it Nickel?

Rick

 

[kadams]

Is it Nickel?

Rick

No sir its blued I havn't personally seen one in nickel finish but im not a 24-3 afficianado by any means

 

[kadams]

I like accurate loads but am not an obsessive perfectionist. I'd be happy with your 35 yard groups and congratulations for shooting at a distance where you can actually determine real and meaningful accuracy.

Thankyou, I started out hunting with handguns (squirrels and rabbits first, then deer and hogs) long before crafting my own ammo for them and my end goal is accurate hunting rounds. I shoot better groups with optics mounted on other handguns at 50yds than i do with open sights at 35yds these days and honestly my eye site isn't what it used to be and my results at 35yds may be my own fault, I am getting 1.5" at 35 yds with cast SBWC out of my open sited 27-3 .357 so I'm thinking I still havn't achieved the accuracy the 24-3 is capable of, it does need some trigger work and my groups are horizontal usually which leads me to believe I'm canting the revolver when pressing the trigger.

Note: the best groups thus far from the 24-3 are with 10grains of HS-6 and a 240grain LSWC-GC and they are under an inch at 25yds. I'm out of gas checks and waiting on a check maker I ordered 2 months ago so I havn't been able to try that load at longer distance. That load is a bit stout for regular practice but i get no pressure signs and easy extraction and would use it on game.

On the note of testing at distance that can determine real accuracy, I really have a peeve with gun writers testing for accuracy at seven or 15 yds calling it good, then proclaiming the gun a tack driver, For the life of me I cant figure out why? You should be able to hit a tin can with a sling shot at that distance!

I really appreciate all the tips and input i receive from this group, this is my first round of casting and loading for best accuracy and its been quite an interesting education. previously i only loaded jacketed ammo, And at the price of that gold plated commodity these days i would have hung up this project 2months ago!

 

[rockquarry]

Thankyou, I started out hunting with handguns (squirrels and rabbits first, then deer and hogs) long before crafting my own ammo for them and my end goal is accurate hunting rounds. I shoot better groups with optics mounted on other handguns at 50yds than i do with open sights at 35yds these days and honestly my eye site isn't what it used to be and my results at 35yds may be my own fault, I am getting 1.5" at 35 yds with cast SBWC out of my open sited 27-3 .357 so I'm thinking I still havn't achieved the accuracy the 24-3 is capable of, it does need some trigger work and my groups are horizontal usually which leads me to believe I'm canting the revolver when pressing the trigger.

Note: the best groups thus far from the 24-3 are with 10grains of HS-6 and a 240grain LSWC-GC and they are under an inch at 25yds. I'm out of gas checks and waiting on a check maker I ordered 2 months ago so I havn't been able to try that load at longer distance. That load is a bit stout for regular practice but i get no pressure signs and easy extraction and would use it on game.

On the note of testing at distance that can determine real accuracy, I really have a peeve with gun writers testing for accuracy at seven or 15 yds calling it good, then proclaiming the gun a tack driver, For the life of me I cant figure out why? You should be able to hit a tin can with a sling shot at that distance!

I really appreciate all the tips and input i receive from this group, this is my first round of casting and loading for best accuracy and its been quite an interesting education. previously i only loaded jacketed ammo, And at the price of that gold plated commodity these days i would have hung up this project 2months ago!

I think there are a lot of gunwriters (paper published and Internet published) today who aren't very experienced and wind up with guns they can't shoot very well, even from a benchrest. But, up close, everything, even sorry ammo and sorry guns are "accurate" and the shooter is a pro. That's not very helpful for readers interested in true accuracy, but to many readers today, accuracy is not important.