Aluminum Case Ammo

[Law-dog]

I did download this report and geeked out. It would seem that Al is less elastic than Brass or Steel. Subsequent developments (6.8 mm caseless ammo) seem to have gone in a different direction. Question is whether Pickenny Arsenal is still developing Al case ammo.

Is that a real report? It says:

""""Destroy this report when no longer needed by any method that will prevent disclosure of its contents or reconstruction of the document. Do not return to the originator"""" lol


That report of course dealt only with using aluminum based cases in the 5.56 platform for military application, a harsh test for sure. Note this one final claim:




Steel cases are better, they said:



And brass is cheaper for military cases.

--------------------------------------

Bottom line? I dunno, nothing wrong with aluminum, if they are made correctly, as least according to this detailed report.

Read this report slowly, it has good information in it.

And I do agree.

 

[Dave Haynes]

So many people write that "I heard somewhere" or "the guy at the range said",regarding steel cased ammo,all BS...Look up "Rockwell Hardness Scale" and you'll see the steel case will not harm your gun or any part in it...Steel ammo cases are made from cheap steel,meaning soft,while your gun and its parts are necessarily made from much harder steel...Kinda like saying,with a little intentional
exaggeration for scale,that if you hit the bumper of your car with aluminum foil it will dent it...

The only steel cased ammo the Army wanted was the 45 made by Chrysler. I believe that they tried a run of steel 30 carbine but limited it to practice use. The Germans used it because they had no brass and little copper. Steel works fine in Russian weapons because they are so loose that nothing sticks in their chambers, they are taper cased and rimmed. The things that suffer from steel cases are extractors, small precision parts that work hard. The cases themselves are made of lots of different materials even plastic. But an extractor that by design has a sharp edge that can wear, when small steel hits big steel the small loses. So to say that steel case is just perfectly OK, it isn't. How many extractors today are made MIM? Heat treating extractors properly was a major problem in the 30 carbines during the war.

 

[rockquarry]

The only steel cased ammo the Army wanted was the 45 made by Chrysler. I believe that they tried a run of steel 30 carbine but limited it to practice use. The Germans used it because they had no brass and little copper. Steel works fine in Russian weapons because they are so loose that nothing sticks in their chambers, they are taper cased and rimmed. The things that suffer from steel cases are extractors, small precision parts that work hard. The cases themselves are made of lots of different materials even plastic. But an extractor that by design has a sharp edge that can wear, when small steel hits big steel the small loses. So to say that steel case is just perfectly OK, it isn't. How many extractors today are made MIM? Heat treating extractors properly was a major problem in the 30 carbines during the war.

Does brass-cased ammo or brass cases as a component cost all that much more than ammo or cases made with a lesser material? For those having problems with cases other than brass, it seems the extra cost of brass would be money well spent.

 

[rmc]

I bought Blazer aluminum 9mm when it was cheaper. When Blazer brass is close to or equal in cost I use brass.

 

[Harv 24]

I bought Blazer aluminum 9mm when it was cheaper. When Blazer brass is close to or equal in cost I use brass.

This, I have shot tons of steel and Aluminum cased ammo when it was cheaper then brass. now the price hovers around the cost of brass, so I by brass so I can shoot at an indoor range.

If you gun won't shoot Steel or Aluminum ammo, it's you guns fault.

 

[Law-dog]

The only steel cased ammo the Army wanted was the 45 made by Chrysler. I believe that they tried a run of steel 30 carbine but limited it to practice use. The Germans used it because they had no brass and little copper. Steel works fine in Russian weapons because they are so loose that nothing sticks in their chambers, they are taper cased and rimmed. The things that suffer from steel cases are extractors, small precision parts that work hard. The cases themselves are made of lots of different materials even plastic. But an extractor that by design has a sharp edge that can wear, when small steel hits big steel the small loses. So to say that steel case is just perfectly OK, it isn't. How many extractors today are made MIM? Heat treating extractors properly was a major problem in the 30 carbines during the war.

Now that the Army has concluded it's 20 year search for the perfect battle round, the .277 Fury is going to get one design that has a brass case and a "steel" head, exactly where that extractor will interact. They fixed any weak link that might have existed at that point, and testing did not find any issues at all with the new guns.

6.8x51mm (.277 Fury): Why did the U.S. Army Choose It?

We take a look at the 6.8x51mm Common Cartridge (.277 Fury) round to see what made it so appealing for the U.S. military.

www.pewpewtactical.com

Technology seems to be fixing most things, despite my dragging my feet.








I guess you can buy that ammo lots of places already and many guns are now chambered for hunting and other civilian uses also. Go figure.

 

[rockquarry]

This, I have shot tons of steel and Aluminum cased ammo when it was cheaper then brass. now the price hovers around the cost of brass, so I by brass so I can shoot at an indoor range.

If you gun won't shoot Steel or Aluminum ammo, it's you guns fault.

Probably not a true all inclusive statement. There are likely numerous exceptions.

 

[crasig]

One of my semi-auto pistols failed to eject it properly. I still have the rest of the box somewhere. Can't recommend it.

 

[rockquarry]

Many ways to save money but using second-rate ammo can hardly be justified. Spend a little more to get something you don't have to complain about.

 

[Law-dog]

Many ways to save money but using second-rate ammo can hardly be justified. Spend a little more to get something you don't have to complain about.

It really is not second rate ammo. When Federal and CCI tested it prior to putting it on the market, they found no issues at all, none. What does happen though, it does not feed or eject as well in poorly performing guns. As I mentioned above, a rough chamber is going to be harder to eject, slowing down the ejection. And a rough chamber is going to get and hold carbon and dirt quicker than a brass case and much quicker than a nickel plated case, nickel is of course the best and should function in any gun.

Second, the aluminum is not a "slick" as the brass allow of 70/30 content we normally use. That means the bullet may not feed as smooth and any gun lacking proper spring weight and any poorly polished or form ramp may have issues.

Point being any gun in good shape was found to work perfectly with the Federal and CCI, both their aluminum and the steel cases that Federal produces.

I have shot thousands and thousands of them in 1911s, Glocks, Rugers, Smith and Wesson pistols, and half dozen other brands in 9mm and 45 acp and never once recall a problem.

Then again, every pistol and every wheel gun that I own, has a mirror polished chamber one time and refreshed every 500-600 rounds. And I keep my guns lubed. I shoot that stuff all day long, for decades now and do not ever recall a Federal or CCI aluminum case failing.

As I mentioned above, I reload the aluminum one time in 45 acp and we shoot them in the wheel guns, for targets or plinking. If your gun will not fire them, it is not the ammo.

I was skeptical too, took me a long time to come around, I am old, (76) slow to learn but now going on 2 decades of shooting them, I am a believer, the ammo is fine, some guns need a little tuning.

My 2 cents.

Other people feel the same. It's a dirty, rough, bad, or too tight chamber.

Old news on here: https://www.smithandwessonforums.com/threads/federal-aluminum-ammo-is-it-safe-to-use.42347/

https://ammo.com/casing-type/aluminum

Aluminum Cased Ammunition - A Guide For Shooters

A look at aluminum cased ammo - what are the advantages and disadvantages of it? Is it worth the potential savings?

www.ammunitiontogo.com

 

[Law-dog]

The future of brass ammo is being called into question. Lots of reasons. Aluminum is far cheaper but requires a cleaner and better chamber, only because when aluminum gets very hot, like when firing dozens of rounds in a military gun battle, it expands and may stick in a chamber, more so than a brass or steel case.

Technology came up with the idea that the best scenario would be for a coated aluminum case, but attached to a high strength aluminum head, that would hold up to high extractor pressure.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Shell Shock Technologies NAS3 Cartridge Case 6+1 Challenge

This two-piece mixed materials pistol cartridge case is lighter, stronger and less expensive than brass.

www.americanrifleman.org

These are already out there in the market under various names. I have seen them but not tried to reload them yet, they take special dies.

Novx Ammunition. This company opted to top the light NAS3 cartridge case with the even lighter Inceptor Ammunition injection molded poly-copper ARX and RNP projectiles. In fact, more than a dozen boutique ammunition makers are now loading this case including Creedmoor Sports, Velocity Munitions and L-Tech (which can be ordered directly from the company via email at [email protected]).







These cases cost roughly 1/2 the cost of a traditional brass case.

----------------------------------

And we know that True Velocity has come up with what they call a superior polymer case for rifles, and of course the Army has found steel cases are superior for military operations.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | The Future Of The Brass Cartridge Case

Advances in technology and manufacturing are ushering in radical changes in cartridge case design. It may not be an extinction event on the horizon for the readily reloaded, one-piece brass version, but the times are changing—fast.

www.americanrifleman.org

I am old and have a stash of traditional 70/30 alloy cases we call brass, so I am good for life, I think. But younger people should plan for the demise of brass as we know it. Just saying...

 

[bph9]

OK, OK, OK. From decades of shooting these.

Nothing wrong with aluminum or steel cases, every type will get dirty, collect a tarnish and eventually get tight in a chamber. Then slow down the action, put stress on the extractor and start causing jams. Just like rimfire, some causes issues sooner than others.

The #1 problem of ammo extraction and jams, is a rough or not so good chamber. 100% the fault of the owner. I use Flex Hones on every chamber and never have a problem with aluminum or steel cases, if you have a mirror shine on your chamber and touch it up ever 500 rounds or so, and keep your gun lubricated, you will never have a problem. If you do not, you will blame the ammo.

I have shot tens of thousands and thousands of aluminum and steel cases, and the problems all went away when I learned about shiny chambers and proper lube, and that is what I have taught in my CCW classes since 1996.

I have been reloading steel Wolf and Tullamo 45 acp cases since 2011, they last longer that brass alloy cases, and being soft steel alloy have no affect on extractors or dies, that is hype. The entire reason they have boxer primers is because they thought American buyers would reload them. Lane Pearce did an article about 2012 or so.

I also formed them into 400 Corbon, a bottle neck case, no problems whatsoever, the 45 acp Wolf steel is soft a malleable, only very ignorant people "think" otherwise. Here is a pic of some 400 cases, some brass and some steel that I formed, these have been reloaded several times. 400 Corbon are loaded to about the same velocity as 10mm. They are 100% reliable as long as you (1) polish your chamber like you should on any carry gun, and (2) lubricate the gun normally, as you should.

View attachment 788443

I have also reloaded the aluminum 45 acp and shoot them in the wheel guns. Aluminum will split after only one or two reloads, so not recommended. I used them because they have small pistol primers and work great for one time gallery loads or plinking loads. Here is a picture of one I loaded, with a 154 grain round ball and 5.5 grains of Green Dot, great plinking load, and then I toss the case after that one reload. I have buckets of 45 acp brass, just my simple attempt at recycling. Why not, they are free. Just takes a knowledge of reloading.

View attachment 788441


There is zero downside to cheap aluminum cases, as long as the gun owner treats his gun properly, none whatsoever. I still have a large stash of the Federal 9mm that I bought for $8 a box. Would love to buy a ton more at that price. I do not like to reload anything I can buy for say $12 box,

Just saying. Unless you actually have tried it an actually know, why trash them. If you are having jams or extraction problems, odds are it is not aluminum or steel cased ammo, it is your lack of taking care of your gun.

I also reload the Tullamo 357 Mag cases, steel cases are stronger, you can reload them hotter, that is why the new 277 military caliber or 277 Outback caliber is now loaded to 80,000 psi, steel is safer.

Check it out. Polish those chambers on all semi auto guns, always. Everybody learned that on ARs long ago, it applies to pistols too.

OK, OK, OK. From decades of shooting these.

Nothing wrong with aluminum or steel cases, every type will get dirty, collect a tarnish and eventually get tight in a chamber. Then slow down the action, put stress on the extractor and start causing jams. Just like rimfire, some causes issues sooner than others.

The #1 problem of ammo extraction and jams, is a rough or not so good chamber. 100% the fault of the owner. I use Flex Hones on every chamber and never have a problem with aluminum or steel cases, if you have a mirror shine on your chamber and touch it up ever 500 rounds or so, and keep your gun lubricated, you will never have a problem. If you do not, you will blame the ammo.

I have shot tens of thousands and thousands of aluminum and steel cases, and the problems all went away when I learned about shiny chambers and proper lube, and that is what I have taught in my CCW classes since 1996.

I have been reloading steel Wolf and Tullamo 45 acp cases since 2011, they last longer that brass alloy cases, and being soft steel alloy have no affect on extractors or dies, that is hype. The entire reason they have boxer primers is because they thought American buyers would reload them. Lane Pearce did an article about 2012 or so.

I also formed them into 400 Corbon, a bottle neck case, no problems whatsoever, the 45 acp Wolf steel is soft a malleable, only very ignorant people "think" otherwise. Here is a pic of some 400 cases, some brass and some steel that I formed, these have been reloaded several times. 400 Corbon are loaded to about the same velocity as 10mm. They are 100% reliable as long as you (1) polish your chamber like you should on any carry gun, and (2) lubricate the gun normally, as you should.

View attachment 788443

I have also reloaded the aluminum 45 acp and shoot them in the wheel guns. Aluminum will split after only one or two reloads, so not recommended. I used them because they have small pistol primers and work great for one time gallery loads or plinking loads. Here is a picture of one I loaded, with a 154 grain round ball and 5.5 grains of Green Dot, great plinking load, and then I toss the case after that one reload. I have buckets of 45 acp brass, just my simple attempt at recycling. Why not, they are free. Just takes a knowledge of reloading.

View attachment 788441


There is zero downside to cheap aluminum cases, as long as the gun owner treats his gun properly, none whatsoever. I still have a large stash of the Federal 9mm that I bought for $8 a box. Would love to buy a ton more at that price. I do not like to reload anything I can buy for say $12 box,

Just saying. Unless you actually have tried it an actually know, why trash them. If you are having jams or extraction problems, odds are it is not aluminum or steel cased ammo, it is your lack of taking care of your gun.

I also reload the Tullamo 357 Mag cases, steel cases are stronger, you can reload them hotter, that is why the new 277 military caliber or 277 Outback caliber is now loaded to 80,000 psi, steel is safer.

Check it out. Polish those chambers on all semi auto guns, always. Everybody learned that on ARs long ago, it applies to pistols too.

Its well known among target shooters that the larger the chamber the less accuracy you get. Now if your not a competition shooter and most people are not then polishing chambers is not a problem and as long as the bullet goes in the general direction of the target that is fine for the plinker crowd.

I am a handloader so for me I can get all the free brass range brass I need and I do buy new brass as well. Considering the damage you do to dies and dies are not cheap anymore for me steel and aluminum are a headache I can live without.

As I said before I have seen people at our range break extractors and jam up guns so tight some of them had to take them to a gunsmith to get them safely unjammed. I have even un-jammed some of their weapons to save them a trip to the gunsmith but that is another hair raising story.

 

[bph9]

Does brass-cased ammo or brass cases as a component cost all that much more than ammo or cases made with a lesser material? For those having problems with cases other than brass, it seems the extra cost of brass would be money well spent.

You are correct read my other posts about the pitfalls of using steel and aluminum and the gun damage and reloading die damage they cause.

 

[bph9]

I have been teaching and certifying CCW students since 1996. I have never seen or heard of an extra being broken while firing aluminum ammo or steel ammo. As stated, it is a gun owner problem. They are having a rough chamber which holds the ammo back and increases the pressure, or they are not lubing the gun properly.

No gun with a shiny chamber and a bit of lube is going to break an extractor, something has to add the additional pressure for a steel part to break.

I do not care what they use as lube, Ballistol is great, any gun oil is great, even WC 40 which is not really a lube is great on the range. It displaces the dirt and crude like Ballistol and keeps the gun running longer.

We learned that on Ars and steel and lacquered ammo 20 years ago. No one gets jams on the range anymore with ARs, except maybe new guys...Mag dumps are fine, as long as you add a little lube every 2-3 mags.

Just last week a fellow shooting a "low budget" off brand plasticky pistol (that are known to have large oversize chambers) jammed his weapon with aluminum case 9mm and jammed it up so tight he was going to send it back to a gunsmith to have it safely unjammed. I asked him if the gun had a live round or just a fired case jammed in it. He said an empty fired case. So I used a wooden down to beat the case out of the chamber and horror of horrors it was a live round.

I have seen even rifles like the SKS that have a very robust extractor snap them right off when using steel case ammo. The coating on Steel case ammo if deteriorated or rubbed off due to careless handling or poor storage is a real problem with this ammo. Again seeing is believing.

The problem these days is that some weapons either do not have spare parts available once you destroy the part with steel case or aluminum case ammo or if they are available they may be out of stock for months and then of course many times these parts often are not a "drop in" but often require hand fitting, a task that is beyond the ability of many gun owners so its then an expensive trip to a gunsmith assuming he is even a qualified one in regards to your particular weapon to be repaired. I have had so many so-called gunsmiths screw up and even damage my guns that years ago I started doing my own work.

As I said in my other post the best way to screw up and destroy a set of expensive dies, especially match grade dies, is to try and resize steel cases and aluminum cases are not easy on dies either.

Ammo manufacturers have long warned people "not to" reload aluminum cases. Is it worth blowing up an expensive firearm especially if it is no longer made and a collectors item?

 

[rockquarry]

It really is not second rate ammo. When Federal and CCI tested it prior to putting it on the market, they found no issues at all, none. What does happen though, it does not feed or eject as well in poorly performing guns. As I mentioned above, a rough chamber is going to be harder to eject, slowing down the ejection. And a rough chamber is going to get and hold carbon and dirt quicker than a brass case and much quicker than a nickel plated case, nickel is of course the best and should function in any gun.

Second, the aluminum is not a "slick" as the brass allow of 70/30 content we normally use. That means the bullet may not feed as smooth and any gun lacking proper spring weight and any poorly polished or form ramp may have issues.

Point being any gun in good shape was found to work perfectly with the Federal and CCI, both their aluminum and the steel cases that Federal produces.

I have shot thousands and thousands of them in 1911s, Glocks, Rugers, Smith and Wesson pistols, and half dozen other brands in 9mm and 45 acp and never once recall a problem.

Then again, every pistol and every wheel gun that I own, has a mirror polished chamber one time and refreshed every 500-600 rounds. And I keep my guns lubed. I shoot that stuff all day long, for decades now and do not ever recall a Federal or CCI aluminum case failing.

As I mentioned above, I reload the aluminum one time in 45 acp and we shoot them in the wheel guns, for targets or plinking. If your gun will not fire them, it is not the ammo.

I was skeptical too, took me a long time to come around, I am old, (76) slow to learn but now going on 2 decades of shooting them, I am a believer, the ammo is fine, some guns need a little tuning.

My 2 cents.

Other people feel the same. It's a dirty, rough, bad, or too tight chamber.

Old news on here: https://www.smithandwessonforums.com/threads/federal-aluminum-ammo-is-it-safe-to-use.42347/

https://ammo.com/casing-type/aluminum

Aluminum Cased Ammunition - A Guide For Shooters

A look at aluminum cased ammo - what are the advantages and disadvantages of it? Is it worth the potential savings?

www.ammunitiontogo.com

You are correct read my other posts about the pitfalls of using steel and aluminum and the gun damage and reloading die damage they cause.

I may have already read the other posts, but I'm aware of the many complaints. I've had very limited experience in this area so I'll assume the complainants (at least some of them) know what they are talking about. I shot some 9mm aluminum Blazer years ago without incident and some 7.62x39, also a long time ago, without problems, but I didn't shoot many of them. This was steel-cased ammo and I fired it in a couple of SKSs. Got rid of the SKS junk and ammo long ago.

As I've said before, and maybe it only makes sense to me, spend a little more and get good brass-cased ammo. In doing so, all you give up is the right to to complain.

 

[langss]

Just to add to the discussion I have also used Herters Aluminum Case 9mm that I bought Cases of before Cabelas became Bass Pro Shops. In fact all 750rds that ran through my wanna be Colt 9mm AR is/was Herters. That being said,I have run it through everything and still no issues.

 

[HamBoneZ]

I would buy aluminum before I reloaded and they were cheaper. I never had a issue with them except when loading a tight mag. They would be a sight softer than brass. Never had extractor issues, sticking, etc. But you won't find my guns not cleaned and lubed.

After I started reloading I would just get brass unless it was a really good deal. I'll reload the occasional aluminum case for plinking.

I qc all my ammo, if i feel for any reason it's unsafe or out of spec, it gets pulled. I do not make out of spec "hot" loads. The majority of my loads are specific to a firearm/ distance so no blowing up of potential firearms or people. I haven't seen noticeable damage to my dies from aluminum or steel cases.

Currently working on developing a load for 44mag de. You generally have to get your loads over 1400fps to cycle reliabily. Seeing if i can use a 320gr fp and get it up to speed. If it works great, otherwise I have to downgrade to a 240gr.

 

[desi2358]

I've used a lot of aluminum and steel case ammo over the years. Often use it where it is difficult to recover fired brass, calms the cheaper side of my nature into not wondering where those missing cases went. As far as my own guns I had one 1908 Colt vest pocket that wouldn't work with aluminum Blazer 25ACP but it had a pitted bore & chamber. Installed another barrel, which wasn't pitted, and it ran fine so I would agree with the poster who said a smooth chamber was important for the aluminum case ammo.

Steel case has also worked fine for me. Haven't found any signs of abnormal wear and tear and functioning in my guns has been fine. We sold a lot of it when we had the gun shop and complaints were few (mostly that it was dirty). Most of it was either .223 or 9mm, a fair amount of 40 and 45ACP as well. No big surge in sales of extractors or other repair work that could be blamed on it. One of the AR forums had an interesting test to failure on AR's a few years ago involving both brass and steel case ammo. It took a very large amount of shooting before extraction problems appeared with either case.

 

[hdfinder47]

I bought a case of steel cased, zinc coated, 115 gr 9mm range ammo earlier this year. Worked fine in my Sig P365, P320, and P226.

I had the same experience until the extractor came apart in my P365 EDC. Don't know if it was the ammo but not taking any chances to save a few bucks.

 

[skwchock]

A couple of years ago, the DoD was "pushing" caseless ammo to prevent their "reuse" by the enemy. Has this "initiative" gone away or is it still in development/design stage? This would impact reloading ammo.