Banned Firearm

[Oldsalt66]

Who said anything about banning something? I almost never want to ban anything. I'm a freedom-loving, limited government Constitutionalist who believes the 2A is an absolute, inviolable right without conditions. It's reasonable to simply expect gun manufacturers to produce sound designs that don't go bang when you don't want them to go bang. When a manufacturer fails to do so, it is their responsibility to fix it because its a defective, hazardous product. All consumers should expect manufacturers of the goods they buy to produce products that function correctly.

If that's an oblique reference to SIG, all of that YouTube clickbait nonsense aside, it needs to be recognized that no one, not even the best firearms engineers and technical experts plaintiff's injury attorney's money can buy; has EVER been able to duplicate any of the alleged spontaneous discharges of any SIG P320 under controlled, observable, laboratory conditions, not even in pistols that were alleged to have fired spontaneously.

 

[Oldsalt66]

That the military hasn't yet experienced a documented instance of an uncommanded discharge doesn't negate what has repeatedly occurred in the civilian sphere. It's akin to being struck by lightning. While that only rarely happens, I still don't go outside during a thunderstorm.

YouTubers are the devil.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Already been posted more than once. And it isn't "pearl clutching," just difference of opinion. That document doesn't really say anthing conclusive about the gun itself, and in fact there is an excerpt that even hints that some of their inventory of M18s exhibited functional issues. All that document says is the USAF cleared the gun for continued use, but that inspections and repairs would be done.

Additionally, it makes no mention of what I presume are unit-level adjustments- I.e. empty chamber carry.

 

[GUNSAFETY4U]

Is the P320 FCU/Striker system the root of all evil?

Not that I can see proven... Now for some subjective opinions… (Apology up front)

After watching this P320 debacle for the past 2 years, I've decided to point out several observations... This list comes from 46 years of working with firearms on the Job (Armed Sec, LEO (Uniform and PC), Competitive shooter since 1980 (Bullseye, PPC, B-Cup, NRA Action, USPSA, SCSA, etc.) Licensed Gunsmith NYS (80s). Training Counselor . LE Instructor , Certified Coach, CRSO, NROI, blah, blah, blah.

Point One... Condolences to the survivors of those that died. Second, sympathy to those that have been injured.

Point Two...Crap Kydex holsters with too much pinch in the trigger guards are a piece of this... and 90% of makers are selling crap. Proper molds should have 100% filled trigger guards. Same thinking goes for trigger locks that put metal rods or bolts through the trigger guard. Wow…

Point Three... Anyone that carries a P320 in their appendix is exposing themselves to risk. That's DA/SA, SA Auto, or DA Revolver country. We knew that in the 80s and not much has changed. Add to that, trigger guard and a string type devices. Sorry, not for me. Get real, legitimate holster training from a CERTIFIED CCW or Personal Protection Instructor. That means only one brand of class. 3-Hour State Permit classes don't even come close, no matter who the instructor is.

Point Four...Trigger "blade" safety is not infallible due to environmental things (threads, fabrics, straps, poor retention mechanisms). Fully charged strikers have been around for years, Gun design is like car design. Every year some product designer is hellbent to create the newest, fanciest, fastest, sexiest car. Now look at the last 5 years of firearm ads on line or in print. Same with Golf clubs.

Point Five...Then there are the other human condition gems...

NEVER take a holster or belt off with a loaded firearm in it. (USPSA, SCSA, NRRA, State LE Regs. Standard NYS Academy training in the 80s. Most department policies. Many other states too. The latest Air Force UD issue was avoidable through training. Oh yeah, and it was fabricated, aka Somebody got locked up. " Make It Safe" is simple. Safe Direction (or Armory Chute), Watch fingers, Mag out, Lock open, round falls to ground, no childish flip it in the air immaturity nonsense. Eyeball the chamber. Transfer it properly, NOT loaded, chambered, in holster. THEN pick up the round on the floor.

Point Six: Now let's discuss the FBI Report.... Poor Methodology, No control sample. Some of the social media folks stick things in the trigger guard/ assembly which in essence is simulating a partial trigger pull. I don't buy them as proof of other than levering the trigger rearward. I read the MSP report and video with hands and keys. I watched the ENTIRE Sig Guy Breakdown, 3D printed FCU/Striker Safety interface viewer, mechanics, watch the striker release activation from the frame. then check your 320 using his frame/ trigger criteria. For me, I watched Bruce Gray's Videos. Then I got out my depth micrometer, calipers, magic markers, and ran it myself. Answered my questions. If in doubt call SIG for a Call tag. Let them check/fix it. If you are not an experienced TRAINED armorer or gunsmith, well you know where this goes....

Triggers NEVER get changed/ modified in defensive guns. There is a significant number of "experienced" (yeah right) gun owners with too much testosterone and inadequate common sense that want a "trigger job" in a self-defense/ carry/ duty gun. Just learn to shoot, practice safely and enjoy the range, often. Range and competition guns are where mods should be/ stay, if the shooter is expert enough to gain real benefits. Like golfers, shooters want to mess with their clubs too much. The fewer changes and variables, the more consistent the results. Coaching 101...

As an aside, in our training equipment we have 3 P320s (M18, X Compact, X5 Legion 5"), 3 p365s (2 XL and a Fuse), Glocks, Walthers (Q5, Xesse), Tanfos (LF SA), Berettas, Steyrs, S&W M&P, S&W 5906, 6906, 3913, 639, P220SM, p226, P210a (Target and Carry) and on and on. The p320X5 (swapped FCU for rear safety) has 15000+ rounds through it, never an MF. The M18 is 2k. Range guns. No MFs ever. P365s 15+ rounds through the 3, no MFs. All the other brands have similar numbers.

All of our FCUs are post upgrade born. Any action work is FACTORY only. Guns are cleaned and not overlubricated.

Point Seven... Proper gun handling is how you don't get injured. Proper carry mode (including garments) is another accident reduction method. This is the number one area of safety in Holsterland. Fingers, fabrics in holsters where firearms should be alone. 90% of folks that put a shirt or t-shirt over a carry gun are unsafe on the range. We see it and correct it every day. Properly made and tested holsters reduce accidents. Nothing in the holster (including retention mechanisms) should go inside the outer plane of a trigger guard. There are plenty of other types of retention available. Training and safety discipline could have eliminated a number of the UDs floating out there.

Now for the painful part...

SIG (my first one was p225 in 1893) makes good products. P320 mess is partially self-induced, by not communicating enough, providing public videos, info, and detailed analysis to the public. There are a lot of reasons to keep things tight (lawyers, juries, press, etc.), but there are other considerations as well. Finally, Wk. 3 August 2025, the right engineering came out. Each of us will have our own opinion.

SIG needs to do research, research causative elements (including suspected ones) and put out videos, drawings, 3D models, etc., and possibly peer reviewed research showing what happened, likely causes, and fixes, LE agency equipment choices training and policies, customer processes, holster specs, internal upgrades or solutions (why or why not) this is SIGs responsibility). Do whatever is needed to close this loop. It's just icky, and unnecessary.

Last thought... And any owner should ask themselves. Am I doing everything in my power to not contribute to a UD? with some firearms, an empty chamber makes sense. Cocked and locked on 1911/2011 type Self-defense carry guns, does not for me either. SERPA holsters either. Striker guns in Appendix Holsters don't either. With some firearms, empty chambers do make sense to me.

We don't have all of the answers and have questions like everyone else. Sometimes, the solutions come from last learning, some from the better mousetrap...

At the end, please be safe, help less experienced folks at the range, be courteous, and yes... Have some fun...

 

[poledorus]

But here's the deal... while we mention what hasn't been proven, the other thing that also hasn't been proven is that any of these cases were absolutely, positively caused by human negligence. I don't care for the whole idea that discussing the obvious "elephant in the room" somehow gives more ammunition to those people who want to strip us of our 2A rights. We as consumers have a right to demand that manufacturers do their due diligence and produce products that are exceptionally well engineered. The only way they have an incentive to do so is by consumer demand, by customers voting with their wallets.

Sig has done some morally questionable things in the past, or more precisely, its CEO Ron Cohen did. Just do an internet search on his role in falsifying documentation that a shipment of guns from the Sig Sauer division in Germany was being shipped to the US, but instead, he illegally shipped the guns to Columbia in violation of German law, knowing that Sig Sauer - Germany would not ship to Columbia. He was subsequently arrested and sent to prison when he arrived in Germany.

Sig has repeatedly let its customers be beta testers on both design changes to the P320 and P365. All of these issues started when Ron Cohen arrived at Sig. Cohen was previously the CEO of Kimber and Kimber's quality took a serious nosedive under Cohen's leadership because of his tendency to cut corners and get parts made by the lowest bidder. Many of the P320's parts are currently made by suppliers in India for cost reduction, which complicates QC.

And I'm an engineer, not an "engineer" with quotation marks. I have been a manufacturing engineer and proud of my profession for 25+ years. There's a lot of stuff I don't understand in this world, but when it comes to manufacturing things, I do know what I'm talking about. This isn't bragging, it's simply what I do for a living.

But thank you for understanding that I am not trying to argue with you, I am merely talking about the topic at hand and in order to do so, the particular design features of the gun are kind of unavoidable if one wishes to try to explore why these incidents could be happening.

I appreciate the sentiment on Beta testing. I passed on the P320 after my LGD failed to properly demonstrate its reassembly after several tries. There is so much static on the issue, it's hard to tell what is truth here. But I do sense...I stress that I sense, and do not know...that manufacturing and quality control standards are in decline across the board, and have been for many years. It seems to me that many new firearms are rushed to market with bugs, and some of these from older manufacturers that should better. For that reason, I avoid buying the first run of anything, and have increasingly turned to older, tried and true arms.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

Is the P320 FCU/Striker system the root of all evil?

Not that I can see proven... Now for some subjective opinions… (Apology up front)

After watching this P320 debacle for the past 2 years, I've decided to point out several observations... This list comes from 46 years of working with firearms on the Job (Armed Sec, LEO (Uniform and PC), Competitive shooter since 1980 (Bullseye, PPC, B-Cup, NRA Action, USPSA, SCSA, etc.) Licensed Gunsmith NYS (80s). Training Counselor . LE Instructor , Certified Coach, CRSO, NROI, blah, blah, blah.

Point One... Condolences to the survivors of those that died. Second, sympathy to those that have been injured.

Point Two...Crap Kydex holsters with too much pinch in the trigger guards are a piece of this... and 90% of makers are selling crap. Proper molds should have 100% filled trigger guards. Same thinking goes for trigger locks that put metal rods or bolts through the trigger guard. Wow…

Point Three... Anyone that carries a P320 in their appendix is exposing themselves to risk. That's DA/SA, SA Auto, or DA Revolver country. We knew that in the 80s and not much has changed. Add to that, trigger guard and a string type devices. Sorry, not for me. Get real, legitimate holster training from a CERTIFIED CCW or Personal Protection Instructor. That means only one brand of class. 3-Hour State Permit classes don't even come close, no matter who the instructor is.

Point Four...Trigger "blade" safety is not infallible due to environmental things (threads, fabrics, straps, poor retention mechanisms). Fully charged strikers have been around for years, Gun design is like car design. Every year some product designer is hellbent to create the newest, fanciest, fastest, sexiest car. Now look at the last 5 years of firearm ads on line or in print. Same with Golf clubs.

Point Five...Then there are the other human condition gems...

NEVER take a holster or belt off with a loaded firearm in it. (USPSA, SCSA, NRRA, State LE Regs. Standard NYS Academy training in the 80s. Most department policies. Many other states too. The latest Air Force UD issue was avoidable through training. Oh yeah, and it was fabricated, aka Somebody got locked up. " Make It Safe" is simple. Safe Direction (or Armory Chute), Watch fingers, Mag out, Lock open, round falls to ground, no childish flip it in the air immaturity nonsense. Eyeball the chamber. Transfer it properly, NOT loaded, chambered, in holster. THEN pick up the round on the floor.

Point Six: Now let's discuss the FBI Report.... Poor Methodology, No control sample. Some of the social media folks stick things in the trigger guard/ assembly which in essence is simulating a partial trigger pull. I don't buy them as proof of other than levering the trigger rearward. I read the MSP report and video with hands and keys. I watched the ENTIRE Sig Guy Breakdown, 3D printed FCU/Striker Safety interface viewer, mechanics, watch the striker release activation from the frame. then check your 320 using his frame/ trigger criteria. For me, I watched Bruce Gray's Videos. Then I got out my depth micrometer, calipers, magic markers, and ran it myself. Answered my questions. If in doubt call SIG for a Call tag. Let them check/fix it. If you are not an experienced TRAINED armorer or gunsmith, well you know where this goes....

Triggers NEVER get changed/ modified in defensive guns. There is a significant number of "experienced" (yeah right) gun owners with too much testosterone and inadequate common sense that want a "trigger job" in a self-defense/ carry/ duty gun. Just learn to shoot, practice safely and enjoy the range, often. Range and competition guns are where mods should be/ stay, if the shooter is expert enough to gain real benefits. Like golfers, shooters want to mess with their clubs too much. The fewer changes and variables, the more consistent the results. Coaching 101...

As an aside, in our training equipment we have 3 P320s (M18, X Compact, X5 Legion 5"), 3 p365s (2 XL and a Fuse), Glocks, Walthers (Q5, Xesse), Tanfos (LF SA), Berettas, Steyrs, S&W M&P, S&W 5906, 6906, 3913, 639, P220SM, p226, P210a (Target and Carry) and on and on. The p320X5 (swapped FCU for rear safety) has 15000+ rounds through it, never an MF. The M18 is 2k. Range guns. No MFs ever. P365s 15+ rounds through the 3, no MFs. All the other brands have similar numbers.

All of our FCUs are post upgrade born. Any action work is FACTORY only. Guns are cleaned and not overlubricated.

Point Seven... Proper gun handling is how you don't get injured. Proper carry mode (including garments) is another accident reduction method. This is the number one area of safety in Holsterland. Fingers, fabrics in holsters where firearms should be alone. 90% of folks that put a shirt or t-shirt over a carry gun are unsafe on the range. We see it and correct it every day. Properly made and tested holsters reduce accidents. Nothing in the holster (including retention mechanisms) should go inside the outer plane of a trigger guard. There are plenty of other types of retention available. Training and safety discipline could have eliminated a number of the UDs floating out there.

Now for the painful part...

SIG (my first one was p225 in 1893) makes good products. P320 mess is partially self-induced, by not communicating enough, providing public videos, info, and detailed analysis to the public. There are a lot of reasons to keep things tight (lawyers, juries, press, etc.), but there are other considerations as well. Finally, Wk. 3 August 2025, the right engineering came out. Each of us will have our own opinion.

SIG needs to do research, research causative elements (including suspected ones) and put out videos, drawings, 3D models, etc., and possibly peer reviewed research showing what happened, likely causes, and fixes, LE agency equipment choices training and policies, customer processes, holster specs, internal upgrades or solutions (why or why not) this is SIGs responsibility). Do whatever is needed to close this loop. It's just icky, and unnecessary.

Last thought... And any owner should ask themselves. Am I doing everything in my power to not contribute to a UD? with some firearms, an empty chamber makes sense. Cocked and locked on 1911/2011 type Self-defense carry guns, does not for me either. SERPA holsters either. Striker guns in Appendix Holsters don't either. With some firearms, empty chambers do make sense to me.

We don't have all of the answers and have questions like everyone else. Sometimes, the solutions come from last learning, some from the better mousetrap...

At the end, please be safe, help less experienced folks at the range, be courteous, and yes... Have some fun...


View attachment 789275

All very sound advice. Hand in hand with all of that should be the presupposition that the manufacturer of your chosen weapon has done their due diligence and has properly engineered their products to work exactly as intended in accordance to accepted industry standards, and do so with complete mechanical safety to the user.

 

[hdfinder47]

"While the comment about banning P320's with screws jammed in the trigger from your range is a clever, funny statement, ........"
Thank you for recognizing my frail attempt at humor .

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

If that's an oblique reference to SIG, all of that YouTube clickbait nonsense aside, it needs to be recognized that no one, not even the best firearms engineers and technical experts plaintiff's injury attorney's money can buy; has EVER been able to duplicate any of the alleged spontaneous discharges of any SIG P320 under controlled, observable, laboratory conditions, not even in pistols that were alleged to have fired spontaneously.

Nor has anyone been able to show conclusively that all of these 100+ known cases of UDs were all caused by human error either. Nor has anyone been able to explain why all of these UDs have only involved P320s and none of the other numerous striker fired pistols. Nor has anyone offered a logical explanation for why a "service duty" pistol should ever be able to fire while inside a holster. Video footage showing that happening while no hands were on the P320 have been posted just in this thread. What are we to make of what our own eyes see? The simple explanation for why no one has duplicated the issue to your satisfaction can be explained by the fact it could be a very small percentage of guns that have issues, and even in the ones that may have issues, how can one know what series of conditions caused the problem so that it can be reproduced?

Many of us simply see design flaws with the gun. I have studied the gun and worked on it extensively, along with most of the popular striker pistols and have compared their mechanical designs. Other striker pistols have better failsafes in place to prevent sear movement or striker movement unless the trigger has been fully pressed. Sig's own P365 corrected some of these specific vulnerabilities in the P320 by decoupling the striker safety lever and trigger bar from the sear except when the trigger is pressed. I posted a video in this thread showing this specific difference between the P365 and the P320's FCU. The P365 is absolutely without question the more failsafe design. The P365 has sold just about as well as the P320 with lots of people carrying it. Why has there been no reported UDs with the P365? It has a modular FCU and most of the same design features as the P320.

 

[KWW]

I helped you with the appropriate qualifier for your statement.

I'm not sure with his bias that your qualifier will help, but I applaud your effort.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Over the past 5 years of going to the range once or twice a month with 3 to 12 close friends and range buddies, 99% of the time at least one shooter in our group will have some kind of "mechanical problem" with a firearm. Most of us bring more than 1 gun to our range days.

Is frequency of mechanical failure considered normal, common, or very uncommon?

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

Over the past 5 years of going to the range once or twice a month with 3 to 12 close friends and range buddies, 99% of the time at least one shooter in our group will have some kind of "mechanical problem" with a firearm. Most of us bring more than 1 gun to our range days.

Is frequency of mechanical failure considered normal, common, or very uncommon?

I understand where you are going with that, but without knowing what specific guns are brought to these range sessions, how mechanically complex the guns are, whether the guns are cheaply made or not, what constitutes a "mechanical problem," how diligent the participants are with doing normal maintenance, whether the problem could be ammo related, and so on, it's not really possible to answer that question. In general, I would say that most mechanical failures in known quality firearms are at least uncommon if not very uncommon. But if all I ever brought to one of these range sessions were a Remington R51, a USFA ZIP22, and a Hi Point, then I would say mechanical failures would be considered "normal." Conversely, if I brought only falling block single shot rifles to these range sessions, mechanical failures would be extremely unlikely.

 

[Equus]

Be careful ...
This Gun Banning may go places you don't expect or want it to go .
Once the Anti-Gun Bunch realize how powerful a tool it can be ...
they will be more than happy to use it on us .
Gary

Where have you been for the past 100 years?

 

[LVSteve]

Even with the Gray Guns competition trigger kits, MY P320 Xfives have a LOT more pre travel than ANY of my 1911s, and 2011s, and they aren't banned anywhere.
There's always a percentage of people that probably shouldn't be handling guns. Banning a model of gun, due to inept handling is just stupid

You can hardly compare the two guns. For starters, when a 1911/2011 is in a holster, the safety is on. The 1911/2011 safety locks the sear. A P320 in a holster has no such protection, and nor do the military M17/M18 variants as their thumb safety only blocks the trigger. The issue is not gun handling as the videos of the guns going off in holsters with hands nowhere close attest.

For me, Sig went all out to get a trigger with minimal pre-travel and a crisp break compared to other striker fired pistols. The resulting design is somewhat complex. Complex can often mean a mechanical device just has more ways to go wrong. I believe this is what we are seeing here.

 

[Carbondale24]

That's not at all a close comparison mechanically. 1911s/2011s are hammer fired guns with all the fire control parts in the frame, meaning they have a fixed positional relationship with each other and positional relationships between fire control parts cannot vary. This is unlike a striker fired pistol where the sear, trigger, and trigger bar are in the frame and the striker foot the sear engages is in the slide, where movement between the slide and rail will change the amount of sear engagement. Even that can be ok, as long as the gun also has some mechanical means to positively prevent striker movement toward a primer if sear engagement is lost. The P320 lacks this completely if the striker slips over the sear. In addition, a 1911/2011 has 2 levels of safeties completely controlled by the user - a grip safety and a manual thumb safety, both of which block the sear from being moved. The P320 has nothing mechanical preventing sear movement down at any time except for spring pressure. Absence those things and the fact the P320 is a fully cocked single action in Cond 1, in conjunction with no trigger dingus then makes the short trigger takeup and the fact the striker safety disengages early a questionable design choice. Context is everything.

If you have a round in the chamber, you have the option of either having the hammer cocked or not cocked in a 1911. You can safely have a very short pretravel and short total trigger travel under these circumstances. A P320 has none of these things and in the event the sear moves down even a little or the trigger take up is moved just a little, its main internal safety - the striker block safety - is already fully deactivated. Then if the slide has a lot of slop in it allowing up and down movement, it can cause the striker to slide off the sear. Mechanically, you almost could not get more dissimilar actions in semiauto pistols than a 1911/2011 and a P320.

And I never advocated for banning anything. I merely think Sig should do the responsible thing and at minimum redesign the P320, but preferably produce better engineered, more mechanically sound guns in the first place.

I may be mistaken, but I think the 1911 grip safety only blocks the trigger.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

I may be mistaken, but I think the 1911 grip safety only blocks the trigger.

It simultaneously acts on the back of the trigger, the disconnector, and the sear, but yes you are correct, it only physically engages the trigger. By doing so, it provides a physical barrier that blocks the disconnector from contacting the sear. Here is a good animation showing how:



It's an ingenious design!

 

[GnarlsR2]

I understand where you are going with that, but without knowing what specific guns are brought to these range sessions, how mechanically complex the guns are, whether the guns are cheaply made or not, what constitutes a "mechanical problem," how diligent the participants are with doing normal maintenance, whether the problem could be ammo related, and so on, it's not really possible to answer that question. In general, I would say that most mechanical failures in known quality firearms are at least uncommon if not very uncommon. But if all I ever brought to one of these range sessions were a Remington R51, a USFA ZIP22, and a Hi Point, then I would say mechanical failures would be considered "normal." Conversely, if I brought only falling block single shot rifles to these range sessions, mechanical failures would be extremely unlikely.

TB....

You are an analytical engineer. And... you're good at it.

I'm going to do my best to record any issues with their firearm(s) anyone of my group has on our range days.
When there are 6 or 12 of us on 6 lanes there is so much shooting, gun swapping, loading, teasing, and laughing going it's hard to keep track of all the activity. At our lunch, after the range time, we can re-hash any exciting things that happened during our range time.
It's not uncommon for one, or more of the guys to bring a new toy to show off. We all get to shoot it.
As I have mentioned before, these guys are retired military, LE, and active high level security professionals. They have years and years of experience, and they are darn good shots. I've watched a number of these guys pickup a handgun they have never touched before and shoot a bullseye at 7 yards on the first shot. I'm still working that skill.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

TB....

You are an analytical engineer. And... you're good at it.

I'm going to do my best to record any issues with their firearm(s) anyone of my group has on our range days.
When there are 6 or 12 of us on 6 lanes there is so much shooting, gun swapping, loading, teasing, and laughing going it's hard to keep track of all the activity. At our lunch, after the range time, we can re-hash any exciting things that happened during our range time.
It's not uncommon for one, or more of the guys to bring a new toy to show off. We all get to shoot it.
As I have mentioned before, these guys are retired military, LE, and active high level security professionals. They have years and years of experience, and they are darn good shots. I've watched a number of these guys pickup a handgun they have never touched before and shoot a bullseye at 7 yards on the first shot. I'm still working that skill.

I wish I could join you brother! Sounds like a great group, and no doubt a lot of fun!

 

[Navy vet]

I just don't get why someone would carry a suspect weapon AIWB or carry in general. IMHO the P320 is suspect. Some "claim" there is no proof. There are too many documented tests that have indicated a design problem. I am not a SIG hater. Just a guy with common sense. If a weapon is getting a reputation as being not safe, well there has to be a reason. You want to play the blame game on the users. That could be true for civilians. I know for a fact that the LEO's in my area are at the range monthly ... some even twice a month. When I was active duty, we trained monthly. Some of us, weekly. I still am at the range weekly. There is a reason for all those LEO and government agencies have ditched the P320. Out of abondance of safety. Other than Mrs. Lincoln how was the play?

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

I just don't get why someone would carry a suspect weapon AIWB or carry in general. IMHO the P320 is suspect. Some "claim" there is no proof. There are too many documented tests that have indicated a design problem. I am not a SIG hater. Just a guy with common sense. If a weapon is getting a reputation as being not safe, well there has to be a reason. You want to play the blame game on the users. That could be true for civilians. I know for a fact that the LEO's in my area are at the range monthly ... some even twice a month. When I was active duty, we trained monthly. Some of us, weekly. I still am at the range weekly. There is a reason for all those LEO and government agencies have ditched the P320. Out of abondance of safety. Other than Mrs. Lincoln how was the play?

Exactly! Those of us who have legit issues with the design of the gun were told in a post above that we were engaging in "unsubstantiated pearl clutching" solely because we are suspicious of the gun based on evidence we see with our own eyes and actual stupid design choices in actual guns we own and actually have in our hands.

Imagine this was an automotive forum. Say there were over 100 reports of a certain model of car suddenly deploying all the airbags while someone is driving without being involved in a collision. Videos emerge online showing airbags deploying and near catastrophic car wrecks as a result. So far no one has been killed by this, but people have been injured. The automaker is blaming the problem on drivers for careless driving and improper maintenance for some reason despite no evidence of that having occurred. This is happening to a small % of this model of car and so far no one has proven why it happens, but it continues. Knowledgeable mechanics uncover a mechanical issue that they believe could trigger airbag deployment at random while driving. The automaker keeps insisting this cannot happen without colliding with something, and some loyal fans of the car brand tell everyone who doesn't like the idea of having airbags deploy in their faces at random that they are only supporting the radical anti-combustion engine environmentalists by expressing their concerns.

Would anyone here feel comfortable buying that car based on these reports and feel comforted by the fact only a small % of these cars suddenly have the airbags explode out the steering wheel and side panels while driving? Especially given there are plenty of other good cars choose from that have all the same features and performance of this particular car? If there were forum threads about the car and people pointed out what they believe to be stupid design choices in the electronic sensors controlling the airbags, would it be considered "pearl clutching" to be critical of the car's design, when folks simply prefer the automaker address the problem so someone won't be injured or killed?

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Exactly! Those of us who have legit issues with the design of the gun were told in a post above that we were engaging in "unsubstantiated pearl clutching" solely because we are suspicious of the gun based on evidence we see with our own eyes and actual stupid design choices in actual guns we own and actually have in our hands.

Imagine this was an automotive forum. Say there were over 100 reports of a certain model of car suddenly deploying all the airbags while someone is driving without being involved in a collision. Videos emerge online showing airbags deploying and near catastrophic car wrecks as a result. So far no one has been killed by this, but people have been injured. The automaker is blaming the problem on drivers for careless driving and improper maintenance for some reason despite no evidence of that having occurred. This is happening to a small % of this model of car and so far no one has proven why it happens, but it continues. Knowledgeable mechanics uncover a mechanical issue that they believe could trigger airbag deployment at random while driving. The automaker keeps insisting this cannot happen without colliding with something, and some loyal fans of the car brand tell everyone who doesn't like the idea of having airbags deploy in their faces at random that they are only supporting the radical anti-combustion engine environmentalists by expressing their concerns.

Would anyone here feel comfortable buying that car based on these reports and feel comforted by the fact only a small % of these cars suddenly have the airbags explode out the steering wheel and side panels while driving? Especially given there are plenty of other good cars choose from that have all the same features and performance of this particular car? If there were forum threads about the car and people pointed out what they believe to be stupid design choices in the electronic sensors controlling the airbags, would it be considered "pearl clutching" to be critical of the car's design, when folks simply prefer the automaker address the problem so someone won't be injured or killed?

**stares in gen-3 Ford Focus transmissions and engine mounts**