New to me OSS Victory

[DWalt]

The W was also applied to some DSC guns, especially those going to the US Maritime Commission, but those are the ones with the Ordnance inspection in addition to the W. The Ordnance Department, as a function of the Army, did not consider the OSS to be "military" so they didn't inspect/accept the Victory Models going to them.

Do those have the same style and size W in the same location? Could be for Wild Bill Donovan. Side note. My wife's grandfather was a lawyer in Buffalo NY and worked with (or maybe for) Donovan, who was also a Buffalo lawyer. We know nearly nothing about her grandfather other than that, except that he was a fairly prominent lawyer in Buffalo for a long time during the early 20th Century.

 

[RM Vivas]

I wrote an extensive article about the finish on Victory Models for the S&WCA Journal. There was a small run of Parkerized guns for the DSC. All others were finished with sandblast/Black Magic. I reproduced the documents for that article. In spite of the record being clear, letters have used a dozen different terms--Black Magic, Parkerized, military, midnight black and other variations thereof. I can't find any of those terms (except the first two) in S&W or Ordnance documents.

I will add my two-cents to this noble endeavour and dig out some samples from my notes on DSC guns.

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[kwill1911]

Do those have the same style and size W in the same location?

Yes.

 

[Historian13]

Personally I subscribe to the theory the W refers to a contract, which is why it's also found on non OSS guns. Here's a photo I found here from someone else's letter

Which illustrates how sequential chunks of Victory's were diverted to these W contracts, and then broken up to different groups from there.

Does anyone know who in the OSS would have carried Victory's though? My (very limited) understanding is that operational groups responsible for direct action would have likely carried 1911's. As far as I know they all had their US property marks on them, which I guess was fine since they're probably commandos and no denying what they're doing if they're caught.

The purpose of a firearm without any martial/US property markings suggests clandestine work where you don't want it being discovered you're not just some hoodlum with a gun but actually operating on behalf of another government. If you're trying to be undercover though I'd imagine they'd prefer something more compact like a Colt Detective or 2" Victory.

 

[Historian13]

I have found this photo with the caption "[Morale Operations] members clown for the camera in their printshop, China 1945." with what could be a Victory, but I havent found many photos in general

 

[Retired W4]

I tried to find the photo of an OSS guy sitting at a table full of weapons and devices, holding a ball peen hammer in hand. I'll find the photo, I hope.

 

[Historian13]

And another mystery (at least to me): I took the grips off, and the metal underneath it is the military finish; you can even see the fine machining marks.

Is it possible what looks like bluing is just the original finish which has been polished? Or is this just how a blue job would be in general?

I tried to find the photo of an OSS guy sitting at a table full of weapons and devices, holding a ball peen hammer in hand. I'll find the photo, I hope.

Very cool, thank you!

 

[DWalt]

Personally I subscribe to the theory the W refers to a contract, which is why it's also found on non OSS guns. Here's a photo I found here from someone else's letter View attachment 792995

Which illustrates how sequential chunks of Victory's were diverted to these W contracts, and then broken up to different groups from there.

Does anyone know who in the OSS would have carried Victory's though? My (very limited) understanding is that operational groups responsible for direct action would have likely carried 1911's. As far as I know they all had their US property marks on them, which I guess was fine since they're probably commandos and no denying what they're doing if they're caught.

The purpose of a firearm without any martial/US property markings suggests clandestine work where you don't want it being discovered you're not just some hoodlum with a gun but actually operating on behalf of another government. If you're trying to be undercover though I'd imagine they'd prefer something more compact like a Colt Detective or 2" Victory.

Pate's book says only that OSS ordered numerous Victories in .38 S&W to arm resistance groups in enemy occupied areas. No information provided if they had any unusual markings or other characteristics that could be used for identification, or if all were shipped to Rosslyn. I quote: "But the revolver's association with the OSS was primarily in that organization's role of supplying resistance forces, Many thousands of .38-200 S&Ws were channeled to these organizations and to individuals through the OSS."

 

[Historian13]

I remember reading in Pate's book that OSS ordered numerous Victories in .38 S&W to arm resistance groups in enemy occupied areas. Has anyone seen those? No idea if they had any unusual markings or other characteristics that could be used for identification. I quote: "But the revolver's association with the OSS was primarily in that organization's role of supplying resistance forces, Many thousands of .38-200 S&Ws were channeled to these organizations and to individuals through the OSS." No mention made of the presence or absence of typical markings on these resistance guns, or whether they were received at Rosslyn.

I've read that as well, and I'm not aware of any OSS supplied .38-200's being located; however, I think that would make sense if they went to resistance groups. I doubt we were going around collecting them after the war, so they would have disappeared into private hands.

 

[Tom Doniphon]

I own the Victory Model pictured on page 150 of Pate's book (s/n V498607). It has the black magic finish, no martial markings, and only has a P proof mark on the upper left side of the frame and the W mark on the butt. The GECO mark on the butt was added when it was commercially sold. It was shipped to the United States Navy in Rosslyn, VA

 

[DWalt]

I've read that as well, and I'm not aware of any OSS supplied .38-200's being located; however, I think that would make sense if they went to resistance groups. I doubt we were going around collecting them after the war, so they would have disappeared into private hands.

That is why I made the comment. I have not seen any information about how many of each caliber were delivered to OSS, and if those chambered in .38 S&W had any special characteristics identifying them as being OSS vs. those chambered in .38 Special, such as barrel length, presence of the W stamp, lack of topstrap property stamp and Ordnance bomb, etc.

 

[larryofcc]

Looks like my recently passed 14 year old, Tommy. Beautiful kitty. Big Larry

 

[RM Vivas]

I tried to find the photo of an OSS guy sitting at a table full of weapons and devices, holding a ball peen hammer in hand. I'll find the photo, I hope.

I believe that photo is if Dr. John Brunner, an expert on Colt pistols, when he was OSS in China. I think a copy of that photo is in Pates book.

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[kwill1911]

This is John Brunner:

This is not:

 

[Arisaka99]

I was watching that one. The refinish and grips were the reason I (and likely many others) didn't chase it. Congrats on a bargain!

 

[roundels]

Somewhere here was once posted an image of the 1942 Army Ordnance letter specifying S&W use a bead blasted and Black Magic revolver finish. It specified Black Magic by name. Maybe someone can find it. I have seen it several times.

You are correct. I have a Victory Model lettered to the Ft. Worth PD in September 1944. It specifies Black Magic as the finish.

 

[Historian13]

I was watching that one. The refinish and grips were the reason I (and likely many others) didn't chase it. Congrats on a bargain!

Thank you! It fits right in with my misfit collection haha

 

[VinnieL59]

The lot of Victory Models our Sheriff's dept had were not black, they were grey. Is there a difference in Parkerizing and Grey Phosphate? A few years ago my son and I bought the chemicals from Brownell"s to Parkerize a Model 10. It turned-out black, and not grey.

 

[Arisaka99]

I posted a thread on my Rosslyn-lettered Victory last month for additional reference on the known profile. All the characteristics Charlie Flick ID'ed which is why I chased it at auction.

 

[Retired W4]

I believe that photo is if Dr. John Brunner, an expert on Colt pistols, when he was OSS in China. I think a copy of that photo is in Pates book.

Best,
RM Vivas

That's the one. Kevin's post #34 shows it. I guess I did not look deep enough.