Well, I got it back and I tried it out...

[keithherrington]

My Model 586-6 that is. If you recall I sent it to David Sams a few weeks back for accuracy testing at 50 yards using the ammo I normally have for bullseye competition - American Express 38 Special 158 grain lead round nose, Federal Gold Medal Match 148 grain wadcutter and Winchester Super-X Match 148 grain wadcutter. Of the three the AE did the best at ~4". The two wadcutter loads shot about 7-8" at 50 yards.

I sent it to the Performance Center and Vito tested it at 25 yards. According to him, it shot within S&W specifications. However, he happened to come across a 586 cylinder in 38 Special that had been made as a prototype years ago. He installed it without needing to modify the gun in any way and stated it significantly improved the gun's accuracy. I purchased it from him for the lofty sum of $125 and recently got it back freshly reblued and looking good. Unfortunately, when I was checking it over carefully I found two very small issues: the timing was not up to my standards for bullseye shooting (I like an early come-up since I shoot timed and rapid double action), and it had a bit of endshake. I tried fixing the endshake first with one .002" shim but it was slightly too thick. After removing it and pondering the timing issue a bit I decided to switch ratchets between the magnum and the special cylinder. Since the timing on the magnum cylinder was spot on I figured I might get lucky.

Well, I made the switch and it not only corrected the timing, but the endshake as well. B/C gap is now .007", no perceptible endshake and the timing is consistently early on all chambers. I tried it in a match this weekend and even without any practice did OK. Not magically great, but OK enough to give me confidence I'm on the right track. I'm now sending it back to Sams for him to properly crown the muzzle and to test it one final time at 50 yards. However it performs I'm not spending any more time/money on it and will shoot it as it is. I have a Model 27-2 that shoots 2" groups at 50 yards with Winchester Super-X Match 148 and I'm having Alex Hamilton put a Python barrel on my Model 14-4. I figure between these three guns I'll be able to hold my own in competition.

I'll let you know the results of Sams' final testing as soon as I get the gun back.

 

[armybass]

Where do you shoot competition in MD?

 

[keithherrington]

Primarily at AAF&G in Annapolis and the 12th Precinct in Harwood.

 

[M29since14]

...I sent it to the Performance Center and Vito tested it at 25 yards. According to him, it shot within S&W specifications.

I can't tell you how many revolvers I have shot/owned that seemed to shoot acceptably at 25-yards but I could not transfer those results to 50-yards. More than a few.

I have always wondered whether the causes (generally) were gun or ammunition, or maybe both at the same time, but there have sure been a lot of cases where I could not get to the bottom of the problem, in spite of good results at 25. I always tended to think ammunition. Maybe I am just not a 50-yard shooter and only get lucky and pull it off now and then?

I once had a 6-inch Model 66 that was extraordinary in this way. I got frustrated with it and sold it. Now I wish I had it back, so I could continue tinkering with the dumb thing. I replaced it with another 6-inch 66 of more recent manufacture than the troublesome one, and it is probably the most accurate revolver I own.

I am a little surprised that your 586 is a problem child as I cannot recall ever seeing a 586 that didn't shoot very well.

 

[Nightowl]

My 586 would outshoot my PPC gun, even with my home cast semi wadcutter loads.

 

[NFrameFred]

I have always wondered whether the causes (generally) were gun or ammunition, or maybe both at the same time, but there have sure been a lot of cases where I could not get to the bottom of the problem, in spite of good results at 25. I always tended to think ammunition. Maybe I am just not a 50-yard shooter and only get lucky and pull it off now and then?

It's a long and tedious process, and you have to have a lot of different loads and a Ransom rest if you really want to find out. I Ransom rested a 6" Python I owned one time and the difference in 3/10s of a grain of powder changed the grouping at 25 yards from 10 ring shotgun pattern to one ragged 1 & 1/2 " hole in the X ring ( 12 round strings) . Still wouldn't group at 50 yards worth anything. Most of the really good PPC shooters I know usually had one load for out to 25 yards and another for the 50 yard leg.

 

[valkyriekl]

Primarily at AAF&G in Annapolis and the 12th Precinct in Harwood.

Woohoo, another Bullseye revolver shooter crankin' and yankin'! And in my neck of the woods, too! I've been shooting at 12th Precinct and Fairfax Rod & Gun Club in VA this year, and I just shot at the MD State Championship at 12th Precinct this past weekend.

My Model 586-6 that is. If you recall I sent it to David Sams a few weeks back for accuracy testing at 50 yards using the ammo I normally have for bullseye competition - American Express 38 Special 158 grain lead round nose, Federal Gold Medal Match 148 grain wadcutter and Winchester Super-X Match 148 grain wadcutter. Of the three the AE did the best at ~4". The two wadcutter loads shot about 7-8" at 50 yards.

I'm surprised at the groupings you're getting with the wadcutters at 50 yards, though. I've been using 148gr HBWCs over 3.1gr of W231 in my red-dot'ed S&W 686-5 for Centerfire, and I've been getting dead-on hits (or at least, I can call them when I miss).

I also got really good results with some stuff I bought for the Distinguished Revolver match last weekend: "Precision Delta" is the name, commercially reloaded 158gr LSWC .38 special ammo, shot out of my 6" S&W 19-3.

 

[keithherrington]

Thanks. I'll give that load a try.

 

[valkyriekl]

Man, that would be the bee's knees if I could have a cylinder chambered for .38SPL for my 686, though. I haven't seen any accuracy issues (that I know of) with my .357 Magnum-chambered cylinder (and there really shouldn't be any issues--the bullets' driving bands hit the 'shoulder' before the bases leave the cases, anyways), but it's always a psychological thing, knowing that the jump is there. With a properly chambered cylinder, I could concentrate on worrying about where the dot is on the target.

Definitely let us know how it goes, and maybe I'll see you on the line sometime (just look for the fool shooting all revolvers, .22, CF, and .45).

 

[keithherrington]

I think we met at the last match. I was shooting revolvers in 22, CF and 45, all with open sights. As to accuracy, I rely on what the Ransom Rest tells me. That way I know exactly when to blame myself for a crap shot.
Keith

 

[EdwardM]

cprher & valkyriekl:

Very encouraging to see there are still a few using revolvers in all phases of Bullseye.

I recently became interested in the sport (at age 66) and primarily planned on concentrating on DR competition but more and more am thinking of trying full 2700's.

I have a Model 14 and Model 17; thinking of a 1955 Target or Model 25-2 for .45; may I ask what you use for .45?

Although I realize optics cannot be used in DR I think I'll be trying a red dot as I do have some difficulty with iron sights.

I apologize for possibly "hijacking" the thread but I'd welcome the suggestions of experienced shooters like yourselves.

Thanks.

Ed

 

[valkyriekl]

I think we met at the last match. I was shooting revolvers in 22, CF and 45, all with open sights. As to accuracy, I rely on what the Ransom Rest tells me. That way I know exactly when to blame myself for a crap shot.
Keith

Ah yes, I remember now; we even shook hands =) I'm terrible with faces and names and need to be reminded a couple times before it really sinks in. Actually...didn't we meet at FXRGC back in March? You were describing a S&W 14-5 that you had...

http://www.pbase.com/rchomitz/image/113734384 -- actually, this isn't yours, is it? (this is one of a bunch of pictures taken at 12th Precinct last weekend; I'm the only guy wearing an orange shirt in those pictures)

I'm anxious to see the results from the match, and whether I've gotten any DR points!

Strangely enough (or maybe not so strange) I seem to get better accuracy when shooting off hand, vs. rested. I was testing a .45 load today (7.9gr AA#5 under a 185gr JSWC), and at 50 yards I was getting 2" groups out of my S&W 625 off a rest, but when I stood up and started shooting "for real", I could call every shot.

Of course, my rest isn't anywhere close to a Ransom Rest, and I don't have access to a RR, so I still don't really know...

 

[valkyriekl]

cprher & valkyriekl:

Very encouraging to see there are still a few using revolvers in all phases of Bullseye.

I recently became interested in the sport (at age 66) and primarily planned on concentrating on DR competition but more and more am thinking of trying full 2700's.

I have a Model 14 and Model 17; thinking of a 1955 Target or Model 25-2 for .45; may I ask what you use for .45?

Although I realize optics cannot be used in DR I think I'll be trying a red dot as I do have some difficulty with iron sights.

I apologize for possibly "hijacking" the thread but I'd welcome the suggestions of experienced shooters like yourselves.

Thanks.

Ed

Sure thing! This is my 2700 set:

Left-to-right:
S&W 625-6, 5" barrel, 1" 4-MOA UltraDot mounted with a Weigand Scope Mount, "Tactical Combat" Goncalo Alves grips by Kim Ahrends, forged Combat .312" trigger, chambered in .45ACP.

S&W 686-5+, 6" barrel, 1" 4-MOA UltraDot mounted with a Weigand Scope Mount, "Tactical Combat" Goncalo Alves grips by Kim Ahrends, forged Combat .312" trigger, chambered in .357 Magnum (though I load it with .38 wadcutters).

S&W 617-4, 6" barrel, 1" 4-MOA UltraDot mounted with a Weigand Scope Mount, "Tactical Combat" Goncalo Alves grips by Kim Ahrends, forged Combat .312" trigger, chambered in .22LR.

My Distinguished Revolver, a S&W 19-3, 6" w/ Patridge front sight, "Retro Combat" Cocobolo grips by Kim Ahrends:

I don't have a 1911 (yet); my 625 is my only .45. I figured that I was already shooting a revolver in my .22 Bullseye league, and that I was planning on getting something in .38 for centerfire, and getting a 1911 and having it accurized would be more expensive than getting a revolver anyways, so when a 625 popped up here, I jumped on it.

Ed, I would say that you're more experienced than I am; I'm 26, and I've only been shooting for three years (and only shooting Bullseye seriously for one year). I picked up Bullseye as a way to add some structure to my shooting--previously, I was basically going to a range and punching paper with no real focus, aside from turning money into noise. I got involved in some postal pistol matches and the idea of accurately shooting a handgun at long distances appealed to me, so I looked around for a formal sport that emphasized that idea and found Bullseye--conveniently, there was a .22 Bullseye league at my local range, and in reading the rules, I found that I could use a revolver (but their website said that it is rarely done because cocking the hammer takes time during the timed- and rapid-fire stages). So, with my 617, I gave it a try last year and really liked it, and stuck with it, putting my annual membership to the range to good use, visiting the range and practicing every day.

Now, one year later, I've moved up from shooting in a .22-only league to shooting full 2700 matches. I'm doing pretty well, I think, though there's still lots to learn and I look forward to it!

-Kent

 

[EdwardM]

Kent:

VERY nice group of revolvers.

Thank you for the information and continued success in your shooting career.

Ed

 

[keithherrington]

Kent,
Yes, that is a picture of my 586 at Harwood.
Keith

 

[Bullseye Smith]

I love Bullseye myself, the best for center fire is the 32 long. I built a 16 out of a model 10 and 16 parts and it will drive tacks:

I just got a 686 consversion done for the 9mm and when everything get to normal on the reload supplies I will work out a load for it.I have the cylinder in my 6 inch Power Port and it will drive tacks:

Then for the 22 I use my 617 and it does great also.

I need to get some red dots for the guns so I have the same on each. You have some nice set-ups on your guns.

 

[valkyriekl]

Kent:

VERY nice group of revolvers.

Thank you for the information and continued success in your shooting career.

Ed

Thanks, and you're welcome! Best of luck to you, too!

I need to get some red dots for the guns so I have the same on each. You have some nice set-ups on your guns.

Thanks; the three UltraDots weren't cheap, but after having a Tasco AccuDot literally fall apart on me the night before a match, I decided the investment (and lifetime warranty!) was worth the price. I also liked the Ahrends Tactical grips, since they fit my hands very well and direct the recoil into the webbing of my hands, rather than the bones (I have medium/small-ish hands). Finally, I didn't like the MIM triggers, so I swapped them out for the forged Combat triggers, which feel a lot better (for me). All told, the accessories added about $200 extra per gun...yikes, I just realized that now!

Hey, how much does that ATN Ultra weigh on your 686?

 

[Bullseye Smith]

I rebuild a Smith for a friend and he gave it to me, have no Idea what it would cost. I have a hard time getting sights and stuff. If I have extra money I buy barrels and such for another project to do. I just got a barrel for a 686 Mountain Gun and working on finding a 686 to build .

 

[valkyriekl]

I rebuild a Smith for a friend and he gave it to me, have no Idea what it would cost.

Sorry; I was asking about how much the thing weighs--how heavy is it? I ask because my guns, while nice and heavy to absorb recoil and make holding on target easier (more mass = less jitters), are also heavy at nearly 3.5-lbs each which may become problematic when my bones start creaking in 20-30 years...

Though if I actually get around to picking up a 629-5 and topping it with a red-dot and attempting Bullseye with full-house .44 Magnum loads, I may want for all the weight I can get =)