Brill-style Scabbard by Charles Kluge

boykinlp · #1 05-03-2022, 05:36 PM

I have recently acquired a Brill-style scabbard. It was determined by the experts that it was made by Charles Kluge of the Kluge Brothers Saddlery between 1906 and 1912. The company was a significant downtown Austin leather enterprise, being in business for 20 plus years in 1906. By 1912, the A.W. Brill Company took over the Kluge Brothers Saddlery, but the brothers remained on as employees.

According to Red Nichols, "Charles Kluge of Kluge Brothers was the innovator who created the style for Captain Hughes in 1906; it was long thought it was N.J. Rabensburg but period news articles put us straight on that. Rabensburg likely was at Kluge Brothers saddlery as a saddle cub at that time.

Kluge made the scabbards, in the familiar basketweave and in that particular carving style, too, from then until 1912 when A.W. Brill bought out the Kluge Brothers saddlery. From then on they were the same scabbards but with the A.W. Brill stamp in the center of the leather cuff. The welt stack of these Kluge scabbards are always quite straight, the cuffs are wide, the tip ends of the cuffs are sewn to the fender in just that way, and there is just one welt inside the welt stack.

It was in 1932 that Rabensburg joined Brill to eventually replace Charles Kluge who would die a decade later. Rabensburg changed the style of the holster and including that carving; added a second and even third welt, contoured the main welt stack, changed the hand sewing of the cuff ends, added a stitch to the open end of the welt stack."

I contacted some of the owners of the known Brill-style scabbards on the forum and thought a new thread should be started to limit confusion. Hopefully, as more scabbards are identified that fit this description, they will be posted here, so we can discuss them. These scabbards are fairly easy to identify when looking at the rear and welt of the scabbard. Here are pictures of my scabbard:
Larry

wheelgun610 · #2 05-03-2022, 06:51 PM

I don't think there's any doubt yours and mine were made by the same person. If there are any subtle differences that I don't know to look for, I hope someone will point them out here for clarification. The only real difference I see at first glance is that yours will accept a much wider belt than mine. I'd have to assume that mine was what is referred to as a "Sunday Scabbard", to be worn on a trouser belt under a suit jacket. Men's suit jackets were considerably longer a hundred years ago than what we're used to seeing today.

Anyway, here's one shot of mine that I have access to at the moment. I'll add a few more as soon as I can locate them in my main computer.

Mark

rednichols · #3 05-03-2022, 07:09 PM

Easy to tell them apart when you become an expert, just as my radiographer wife was able to spot the bone spurs on my shoulders in a glance at my X-rays yesterday!

Images will tell the tale. Remember that if you're looking at the basketweave versions, there is little to tell a tale. If the floral, the two eras are VERY different. There are NO plain A.W. Brill holsters.

early v late (1).jpg

early v late (4).jpg

Wanna know why we holstorians have changed our minds about who was the first maker of the Sunday scabbard? This is one of several articles that appeared at Charles Kluge's death January 1944:

1944 01 charles kluge obit (1).jpg

And the announcement of his saddlery's purchase in 1912:

1912 09 22.jpg

THE CUFF IS ALWAYS IN THE SAME POSITION ON ALL KLUGE/BRILL SCABBARDS REGARDLESS OF BELT TUNNEL WIDTH. The cuff was a structural part of the design's retention system, so for a wider belt the fender was folded further away from the holster mouth; here is an extreme example that is in the book Holstory:

belted (3).jpg

You now know enough to tell me: who made this one, Kluge or Rabensburg?

boykinlp · #4 05-03-2022, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

Attachment 572556

You now know enough to tell me: who made this one, Kluge or Rabensburg?

Alright, here goes (without the cheat sheet of the back of the holster), if I am seeing correctly, I see an extra hand fish hook stitch at the top of the welt, and I see a thick stacked welt. From the angle, it is kinda difficult to see the curved line along the welt, but I think it is there. So.......I say it is a Rabensburg.

“Kluge designed a SCABBARD and belt for a six-shooter that was worn by practically every peace officer in Texas and filled orders all over the world.” This is quite a statement!
Larry

wheelgun610 · #5 05-03-2022, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

...THE CUFF IS ALWAYS IN THE SAME POSITION ON ALL KLUGE/BRILL SCABBARDS REGARDLESS OF BELT TUNNEL WIDTH.

To me it's pretty obvious that the cuff on my holster is closer to the mouth of the pouch than on Larry's example. And the placement of the cuff is definitely what is dictating the width of the belt tunnel. The fender on both appears to extend upward about the same distance on both holsters. The location of the cuff hasn't been modified on either of them. I actually do have some detailed pics to add as soon as I get a few minutes to sit down and do it...

Mark

rednichols · #6 05-03-2022, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

Alright, here goes (without the cheat sheet of the back of the holster), if I am seeing correctly, I see an extra hand fish hook stitch at the top of the welt, and I see a thick stacked welt. From the angle, it is kinda difficult to see the curved line along the welt, but I think it is there. So.......I say it is a Rabensburg.

“Kluge designed a SCABBARD and belt for a six-shooter that was worn by practically every peace officer in Texas and filled orders all over the world.” This is quite a statement!
Larry

Of course you are correct, which suggests you are also empowered by knowing from the tiniest of details, which is which. That you're missing the curvaceous welt stack is for lack of comparison perhaps? Here is FBI agent Jerry Campbell's Brill for his .44 frame Smith:

1930 w&k campbell.jpg

Notice also the scale of the A.W. Brill mark, to the cuff itself. The oldies are quite wide vs the late models.

To complicate matters there are many makers of the Sunday Scabbard, the second best of which is the Sessums which was made by Robert Rogers and his son Bedell. Brillalikes are also not marked with the Brill name but neither are they Brills in any other way. There was a specification of sorts for the Sunday scabbard; but you will find no unmarked scabbard that has all the details of either era of Brill; nor will you find any of these details omitted, ever, from a Brill from either era.

Kansasgunner · #7 05-04-2022, 10:35 AM

boykinlp asked me to post some photos of my Brill by Charles Kluge with some measurements. This holster is a LH for a 4” fixed sight N frame.

boykinlp · #8 05-04-2022, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansasgunner

boykinlp asked me to post some photos of my Brill by Charles Kluge with some measurements. This holster is a LH for a 4” fixed sight N frame.

Thanks, Tim. That is exactly what I need. Maybe that will help me determine what mine fits. I was told that it fit a S&W 4" K frame revolver. Unfortunately, the only 4" one I have is my Texas Ranger commemorative, and it doesn't fit quite right. Of course, my scabbard is over 100 years old since it was made between 1906 and 1912. It might need to be a 4" revolver without adjustable sights like a M&P.
Larry

rednichols · #9 05-04-2022, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

Thanks, Tim. That is exactly what I need. Maybe that will help me determine what mine fits. I was told that it fit a S&W 4" K frame revolver. Unfortunately, the only 4" one I have is my Texas Ranger commemorative, and it doesn't fit quite right. Of course, my scabbard is over 100 years old since it was made between 1906 and 1912. It might need to be a 4" revolver without adjustable sights like a M&P.
Larry

Jah, a scabbard made 1906-1912 will be for 'holster sights'. Adjustables are rarely encountered in holster guns until the mid'60s and it was this changeover that inspired the Safariland Sight Track; a channel in neoprene for the front sight of Patridge-equipped revolvers.

When I say "the cuff is always in the same place" I intend to say that the cuff was meant to go 'round the frame and although there are minor differences between the two eras, and among holsters, its position doesn't vary by the amount of belt width increase. Here's a great comparison of otherwise nearly identical Brills by Rabensburg:

da (3).jpg

da (4).jpg

da (14).jpg

da (15).jpg

boykinlp · #10 05-04-2022, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

Jah, a scabbard made 1906-1912 will be for 'holster sights'.

To complicate matters there are many makers of the Sunday Scabbard, the second best of which is the Sessums which was made by Robert Rogers and his son Bedell. Brillalikes are also not marked with the Brill name but neither are they Brills in any other way. There was a specification of sorts for the Sunday scabbard; but you will find no unmarked scabbard that has all the details of either era of Brill; nor will you find any of these details omitted, ever, from a Brill from either era.

In your first sentence above, don't you mean will not be for holster sights?

Just to make sure that I am on the same page as yourself, you are saying that in your opinion, our scabbards by Kluge are "Brill's" and not Brill-a-likes, right.

Now I am confusing myself. I thought I had seen an early AW Brill maker marked holster by Kluge with a single or no stacked welt.
Larry

Kansasgunner · #11 05-04-2022, 04:54 PM

Prior to 1912 there was no A.W. Brill Saddlery. So the original "Sunday Scabbards" would more appropriately be products of Kluge Bros. Saddlery. After the sale in 1912 when A.W. Brill bought the Kluge Bros. out, the A.W. Brill stamp came to be and from 1912 until 1932 the "Sunday Scabbards" marked with the Brill stamp were still being made by Charles Kluge. NJ Rabensburg came to the Brill company in 1932 and incoporated his changes into the design which endured until Mr. Rabensburgs death. I hope I got all this right from Red's posts as well as Neal Rabensburgs information.

boykinlp · #12 05-04-2022, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansasgunner

Prior to 1912 there was no A.W. Brill Saddlery. So the original "Sunday Scabbards" would more appropriately be products of Kluge Bros. Saddlery. After the sale in 1912 when A.W. Brill bought the Kluge Bros. out, the A.W. Brill stamp came to be and from 1912 until 1932 the "Sunday Scabbards" marked with the Brill stamp were still being made by Charles Kluge. NJ Rabensburg came to the Brill company in 1932 and incoporated his changes into the design which endured until Mr. Rabensburgs death. I hope I got all this right from Red's posts as well as Neal Rabensburgs information.

Yeah, Tim, like I said, now I am confusing myself!

What is confusing me, I guess is when Red says "nor will you find any of these details omitted, ever, from a Brill from either era". I was thinking the early Brill's made by Kluge were missing the stacked welt, like your holster. So an early Brill, could be missing the stacked welt of the later era.

Tim, thanks for the measurements. Check mine out. The first one looks more than 7”, but the small amount extra is actually the belt loop and not the holster itself. I also made a couple more measurements. I don’t have a 4” fixed sight K frame or N frame revolver.

Larry

rednichols · #13 05-04-2022, 08:30 PM

How fun! Yessir, as old Tex Shoemaker used to say; confusion reigns now.

The clipping I included, shows that 'back in the day' these holsters were known as 'Kluge Scabbards'. The 'Sunday Scabbard' term comes from Ranger Captain Sterling's book and in the past I have pushed it as a generic phrase; and indeed it is for all such scabbards made 'under the auspices' of Brill AND for all the Brillalikes that were made by saddlers NOT associated with Brill. Make sense so far? Here's one such from Kingsville Lumber (whoops, my error, wrong image, this is the King Ranch holster that preceded):

kingsville lumber (1).jpg

Today, having so much more to look at than in 1906, we define a Kluge Scabbard as "those constructed in the 'early' spec BUT NOT MARKED BRILL". After 1912 we would simply call them 'early Brills' because they ARE marked Brill.

In 1932, N.J. Rabensburg arrived at Brill's saddlery and took over. We do not yet know if he immediately changed the construction of a Brill Scabbard, or if Charles kept making them in the early style because Charles continued to work for Brill until his death in '42 (say the several contemporaneous articles).

1932.jpg

By the time of Rabensburg's own death in '61, he appears in a '59 photo making with and without the Brill stamping, in his contoured 'late' style. And we have one of those holsters, partially completed, left behind for his family. He also is shown there making them 'in blank' (no marking); so there are Kluge scabbards w/out the Brill name; Brill scabbards early; Brill scabbards late; Rabensburg scabbards w/out the Brill name; and Brillalikes. Then in both the 'early' and 'late' eras, are those true Brills made by Kluge and by Rabensburg, for Texas Rangers that have the rangers' initials where the maker's mark otherwise w/b (the rangers' service matching the eras of manufacture).

An 'early' scabbard 'associated with Brill' (so I call them Brills regardless) has only a single welt. This is more significant than you realize: no other holsters/scabbards had welts in them until the King Ranch scabbard of circa 1899. They looked like this; look carefully for the differences which are substantial:

kingsville (2).jpg

N.J.'s version received more than the contoured figure that I liken to a woman's (all commercially successful holsters have 'sex appeal', according to JB): they also received at least two welts, and often three. The purpose of the welts is to grab at the pistol frame, the purpose of the cuff is to form the lower half of the belt loop tunnel (it's very carefully placed to do this) and to keep that section of the holster very tight against the frame over time.

Bottom line is although you all may not keep track of the reasons for all the differences, each set is only found COMPLETE on one, or the other, of the eras; they are NEVER mixed. So when you're holding a scabbard of that construction that is carved, you will be able to tell immediately if it is by Kluge, by Rabensburg, or by a third party Brillalike maker. Same with that sewing of the cuff ends on the backside. Below is a Sessums as by the Rogers father/son team:

sessums same (1).jpg

sessums same (1)a.jpg

Ok. Now, that pair of images, which are of a Sessums that I bought from a chap here in Australia who had found it in a storage locker that was emptied/sold for non-payment of fees, was VERY tight on a K frame. It took a bit of time for me to realize that all these scabbards are made so tight that they SWELL when the revolver is holstered. Hence the cuff. So today, what you might think 'doesn't fit', is 'fits' :-).

crazyphil · #14 05-04-2022, 10:23 PM

Based on all of the expert testimony above, I am assuming that my Brill
was made by Rabensberg sometime after 1932.
Front on the left
Back 2nd from left
2 welts 3rd from left
4th from left perfect fit for my Model 10 4" barrel
By the way, I know what happens when I assume anything, so you
don't need to remind me.

rednichols · #15 05-05-2022, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyphil

Based on all of the expert testimony above, I am assuming that my Brill
was made by Rabensberg sometime after 1932.
Front on the left
Back 2nd from left
2 welts 3rd from left
4th from left perfect fit for my Model 10 4" barrel
By the way, I know what happens when I assume anything, so you
don't need to remind me.

"Assuming" is just not the ideal word. Instead you're deducing from knowledge; and you are right, that is an N.J. Brill.

crazyphil · #16 05-06-2022, 03:31 PM

Upon further review I found that my Brill, shown in post 14 above, only
has one welt, and the tip is sewn to the fender.
So now, I am deducing that it is probably made by Kluge, sometime after
1912 when Brill bought the business.
My photos are not clear enough or I'm sure one of you experts
would have picked up on the single welt.

rednichols · #17 05-06-2022, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyphil

Upon further review I found that my Brill, shown in post 14 above, only
has one welt, and the tip is sewn to the fender.
So now, I am deducing that it is probably made by Kluge, sometime after
1912 when Brill bought the business.
My photos are not clear enough or I'm sure one of you experts
would have picked up on the single welt.

It's your eyes, Phil :-). Take a good pic of your main welt stick and I'll point out the multiple welts for you.

I can see from your current image the stack is too thick for a single welt; and all the features of construction are Rabensburg.

N.J. was a master at blending the surface of his welt stack to make it look like it was all of a piece; at Bianchi we strived for this, too, long ago. Here's an example that shows how hard it is to pick the layers:

da (21).jpg

rednichols · #18 05-06-2022, 10:32 PM

Your image below, Phil, 'brightened' to show the central line between two main welts (N.J.'s typically were two different thicknesses of leather, by a lot):

SAM_2119.jpg

A better pic would show MORE layers; one main welt tapers to nothing (called skiving) to accept another welt that is also skived; then the muzzle will have yet a third layer that appears to be to enlarge the pocket for the revolver barrel there.

brill late (9).jpg

The 'lip' of a Sunday scabbard is ALWAYS sewn to the tip of the fender, no matter which saddler made it -- or it's not a Sunday scabbard. N.J. used a hand chain stitch (looks like a chain of stitches laying on top of the backside of the leather, which it literally is) while Kluge used a straight hand stitch as for the main welt stack.

muzzle chain stitch (2).jpg

crazyphil · #19 05-06-2022, 11:06 PM

O.K. I am convinced. I was wright and then wrong. My eyesight is not
it once was. Thank you Red.

boykinlp · #20 05-25-2022, 06:19 PM

Mark, for some reason your pictures aren't showing up for me. I am just getting a circle with a minus sign in the middle. I will try again later.
Larry

wheelgun610 · #21 05-25-2022, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

Mark, for some reason your pictures aren't showing up for me. I am just getting a circle with a minus sign in the middle. I will try again later.
Larry

That's strange. I posted them the same way I've done in the past. Is anyone able to see the pics in my previous post?

Mark

StrawHat · #22 05-26-2022, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelgun610

That's strange. I posted them the same way I've done in the past. Is anyone able to see the pics in my previous post?

Mark

Sorry Mark, all I see is a blank space.

Kevin

wheelgun610 · #23 05-26-2022, 02:16 PM

Okay, I think I figured out what the problem was. Are my pics visible now?

StrawHat · #24 05-26-2022, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelgun610

Okay, I think I figured out what the problem was. Are my pics visible now?

Not yet.

Kevin

arabensburg · #25 05-27-2022, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

I have recently acquired a Brill-style scabbard. It was determined by the experts that it was made by Charles Kluge of the Kluge Brothers Saddlery between 1906 and 1912. The company was a significant downtown Austin leather enterprise, being in business for 20 plus years in 1906. By 1912, the A.W. Brill Company took over the Kluge Brothers Saddlery, but the brothers remained on as employees.

According to Red Nichols, "Charles Kluge of Kluge Brothers was the innovator who created the style for Captain Hughes in 1906; it was long thought it was N.J. Rabensburg but period news articles put us straight on that. Rabensburg likely was at Kluge Brothers saddlery as a saddle cub at that time.

Kluge made the scabbards, in the familiar basketweave and in that particular carving style, too, from then until 1912 when A.W. Brill bought out the Kluge Brothers saddlery. From then on they were the same scabbards but with the A.W. Brill stamp in the center of the leather cuff. The welt stack of these Kluge scabbards are always quite straight, the cuffs are wide, the tip ends of the cuffs are sewn to the fender in just that way, and there is just one welt inside the welt stack.

It was in 1932 that Rabensburg joined Brill to eventually replace Charles Kluge who would die a decade later. Rabensburg changed the style of the holster and including that carving; added a second and even third welt, contoured the main welt stack, changed the hand sewing of the cuff ends, added a stitch to the open end of the welt stack."

I contacted some of the owners of the known Brill-style scabbards on the forum and thought a new thread should be started to limit confusion. Hopefully, as more scabbards are identified that fit this description, they will be posted here, so we can discuss them. These scabbards are fairly easy to identify when looking at the rear and welt of the scabbard. Here are pictures of my scabbard:
Larry

I have recently acquired a Brill-style scabbard. Good. Congratulations. It is a beautiful design floral pattern.

It was determined by the experts that it was made by Charles Kluge of the Kluge Brothers Saddlery between 1906 and 1912. Larry, would you please name the experts and copy of their findings.

The company was a significant downtown Austin leather enterprise, being in business for 20 plus years in 1906. Yes, this is true.

By 1912, the A.W. Brill Company took over the Kluge Brothers Saddlery, but the brothers remained on as employees. Yes, this is correct.

According to Red Nichols, "Charles Kluge of Kluge Brothers was the innovator who created the style for Captain Hughes in 1906; it was long thought it was N.J. Rabensburg but period news articles put us straight on that. Larry, I not aware of any of this. If Red Nichols has changed his opinion on this matter, then it is a 180 degree reversal of what he has been saying for years to you, me and others on the Smith and Wesson Forum. Published documentation by the Stan Nelson article of 2008 on Captain Hughes in 1906 or thereabouts was with N J Rabensburg and not Charles W. Kluge. I have seen nothing to contrary. You must produce your documentation based on your “period news articles” supporting this matter or rescind your words, which are not only misleading but inflammatory since you ae stepping on my grandfather's toes.

Rabensburg likely was at Kluge Brothers saddlery as a saddle cub at that time. Larry! Untrue. There is newspaper documentation to support that Rabensburg was working in La Grange and not Austin. However, I believe he traveled to Austin on occasions as a representative of La Grange Saddle Shop. I myself have tried to link Charles W. Kluge with the Rabensburg family but with no success. Once again, please produce your documentation and do not base it on supposition.

Kluge made the scabbards, in the familiar basket weave and in that particular carving style, too, from then until 1912 when A.W. Brill bought out the Kluge Brothers saddlery. Charles W. Kluge was the artistic director for Kluge Brothers and most likely for the A. W. Brill Company until his retirement. He was gifted, which is why I am collecting Kluge holsters as well.

From then on they were the same scabbards but with the A.W. Brill stamp in the center of the leather cuff. The welt stack of these Kluge scabbards are always quite straight, the cuffs are wide, the tip ends of the cuffs are sewn to the fender in just that way, and there is just one welt inside the welt stack. I have no disagreement with the construction of a Kluge holster and am unqualified to do so.

It was in 1932 that Rabensburg joined Brill to eventually replace Charles Kluge who would die a decade later. Rabensburg changed the style of the holster and including that carving; added a second and even third welt, contoured the main welt stack, changed the hand sewing of the cuff ends, added a stitch to the open end of the welt stack." Larry, you and Red speak the same on technical matters.

I contacted some of the owners of the known Brill-style scabbards on the forum and thought a new thread should be started to limit confusion. Are the Brill-style scabbards limited to just two, that is Kluge and Rabensburg? I was not contacted and have two Kluges and one Rabensburg. There is another Rabensburg holster of mine at the Fayette Heritage Museum and Archives basket weave pattern under construction. There is a fifth basket weave holster floating around the Rabensburg family and may surface within the near future.

Hopefully, as more scabbards are identified that fit this description, they will be posted here, so we can discuss them. These scabbards are fairly easy to identify when looking at the rear and welt of the scabbard. Here are pictures of my scabbard:

Larry

rednichols · #26 05-28-2022, 12:27 AM

Neale, I am the so-called expert from which this info came. I thought you were on board with this, not least because it was you who inspired me to look for the Kluge link in the first place.

It had long bothered me and a fellow researcher who has long since left the project, that N.J. was too young to have participated in the Captain Hughes project. N.J. says in the Nelson monograph that it was created while Hughes was in Austin 1906/7, and that is verified by the Austin directory and contemporaneous articles. You have copies of all this documentation.

It is the several newspaper articles that confirm Kluge as the creator of the scabbard, to the point where at his death it is called the Kluge scabard. You have copies, I sent them to you straightaway that I found them. I thought you understood this confirmed your theory that N.J. was at Kluge Bros 1905 or so. I'm just following the breadcrumbs I find, and they lead this way.

I take full responsibility for all the research and deductions that led to the revelation from the Nelson monograph that I located (and since then, that i appeared twice in the last 25 years; Nelson has since passed away). The first of the scabbards was the Kluge with no Brill name, then the Kluge with the Brill name, and at some point the Rabensburg versions until his own death.

I put together the clues you rely on to distinguish the CK from the NR versions of the Bril. Prior no one realized there was any difference among them, nor any of the timeline. Heck, we had one at the Bianchi Museum (it appears, faintly, in the book Holsters and Other Gunleather) and took no furrther notice of it.

Second edition of Holstory is at the publisher now, and sticks to this new script. I'll follow this with several posts of the Brillalikes of the era, all by Texas makers. There is an equal number of them made without markings; I won't list them for now because they are identifiably by different makers than those that are marked.

rednichols · #27 05-28-2022, 12:29 AM

The forum allows just five images per post. All have been posted before. In error I have included the King Ranch that is noted as Kingsville Lumber, it's subsidiary; if I'd done this correctly I would've shown their later clone of the Brill scabbard:

frank beaumont (1).jpg

huber lubbock (1).jpg

kingsville lumber (1).jpg

lone star austin (1).jpg

lutz bastrop (1).jpg

rednichols · #28 05-28-2022, 12:30 AM

moores henderson.jpg

myres el paso (1).jpg

prosser martin del rio (3).jpg

rogers cl stamford (1).jpg

steiner (1).jpg

rednichols · #29 05-28-2022, 12:33 AM

stelzig houston (4).jpg

voss orange (1).jpg

wade rosenberg (1).jpg

woods gainesville (1).jpg

I also hold an equal number of scabbards that are unmarked, and yet without the identical construction to either the Kluge or the Rabensburg versions.

boykinlp · #30 05-29-2022, 06:50 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Red.
Larry

rednichols · #31 05-29-2022, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

Thanks for the clarification, Red.
Larry

Sure. Below the King Ranch version of the Brill -- so a brillalike -- as distinguished from their original shown in my first set of 5 images as a Kingsville Lumber (Kingsville itself was named for Captain King and Kingsville Lumber was one of his companies there; there is also the same holster marked Santa Gertrudes that was another part of his ranch holdings):

king ranch brillalike (1).jpg marked on its fender's backside

rednichols · #32 05-29-2022, 07:58 PM

Let me add, and hopefully I can stop poking this particular fire, that Nelson's article in MWCA's newsletter states that Hughes was in Austin 1906/07. Correct as far as it goes; but actually those exact dates came from the title of the Austin city directory so he's interposed his own research (didn't come from N.J.'s interview). In fact Hughes and his men were assigned Austin mid-1905 and they left mid-1907; for Marfa.

In 1905 N.J., born late 1899, is as young as 15. This was quite a normal age to become an apprentice, which is a form of voluntary indentured servitude: room and board and only pin money for 3-4 years (both Hermann Heiser and Sam Myres served apprenticeships of that length). So if N.J. was apprenticing at LaGrange saddlery from 1905 to 1909 when he left for Dallas after apparently receiving his papers (no person then c/b employed as a 'mechanic' without them) then he wasn't in Austin at all while Hughes was.

Standard work week for apprentices and mechanics: 60 hours, both in America and in Europe. What varied between the two regions was the length of the apprenticeship -- up to 8 years in Europe -- and no form of payment at all. By 1950 N.J. himself was still working 48 hour weeks.

boykinlp · #33 05-29-2022, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

Sure. Below the King Ranch version of the Brill -- so a brillalike -- as distinguished from their original shown in my first set of 5 images as a Kingsville Lumber (Kingsville itself was named for Captain King and Kingsville Lumber was one of his companies there; there is also the same holster marked Santa Gertrudes that was another part of his ranch holdings):

Attachment 576535 marked on its fender's backside

Wow, that is a beautiful holster! The floral carving is so deep, it almost looks 3D!
Larry

boykinlp · #34 06-06-2022, 07:39 PM

I am posting something that I found that interested me. I had these in my pictures, and at the moment can't find where I got them from (I will later), so hopefully it is not a repost from this thread. I am posting it here, and since it has to do with BRILL holsters in general, in the A.W. Brill thread as well
Larry

rednichols · #35 06-06-2022, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

I am posting something that I found that interested me. I had these in my pictures, and at the moment can't find where I got them from (I will later), so hopefully it is not a repost from this thread. I am posting it here, and since it has to do with BRILL holsters in general, in the A.W. Brill thread as well
Larry

The first image is new to me and thank you for it. The other two are from my posts. I fear Neale has given up on us now over the Kluge learnings. But I've posted early and often about the update on my blog since January and he's a subscriber there. That was the purpose of the blog: to keep Holstory up to date.

Speaking of which. I'll be closing my blog within a week of sending out 750 or so notices to my subscribers that the second Ed has been published. Holstory II is now complete with every notable personage having been comprehensively identified except Ed Lewis of Lewis Holster in Los Angeles.

boykinlp · #36 06-06-2022, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

The first image is new to me and thank you for it. The other two are from my posts. I fear Neale has given up on us now over the Kluge learnings. But I've posted early and often about the update on my blog since January and he's a subscriber there. That was the purpose of the blog: to keep Holstory up to date.

Speaking of which. I'll be closing my blog within a week of sending out 750 or so notices to my subscribers that the second Ed has been published. Holstory II is now complete with every notable personage having been comprehensively identified except Ed Lewis of Lewis Holster in Los Angeles.

Red, I thought I had seen the last 2 somewhere kinda recently, and I scanned both threads thinking they would be there, but didn't see them. I guess I didn't look close enough.

If you want, I will look back in my notes and find out where I got the first picture if you would like. Actually, I'll do it anyway, because I am more curious now.
Larry

boykinlp · #37 06-07-2022, 12:14 PM

I just found something online that may help a little more in determining who was the first designer of the Brill holster. It has been said by some that Charles Kluge was just a superbly talented saddle maker, and how do we know for sure he made holsters. Well I found this:
Larry

https://www.austintexas.gov/edims/do....cfm?id=199534

Judges’ Hill District History
Compiled by Phoebe Allen

Page 13
William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, owned all of Outlot 15 (just north of 16) and built their brick home facing Pearl Street about 1880. Their sons Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s Charles built a charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic at 1801 San Gabriel; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road.

Page 31
c1880 WILLIAM KLUGE HOMESITE, 1802 Pearl (razed). Outlot 15. William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, built a brick home about 1880. City Lot
Register for 1890 indicates that Anna owned all of Outlot 15, with a value of $3500. The Kluges had a saloon and restaurant on Congress. The couple had three children: Henry, Charles, and Mary. By 1881, Anna lived on Pearl ‘between Chestnut and Magnolia’ with two of her sons, Charles and Henry. The Kluges occupied the one-story house with attic floor for several years. The wood frame Victorian home had a front porch.
Their son Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939), a bookkeeper, and his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861-1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl (razed) in the city directories from 1905- 37. Their frame home also had a partial porch with Victorian trim. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses. [see 1897 Charles Kluge House]
1802 Pearl was sold to Angeline Townsend’s daughter, Pauline Townsend Culbertson (3 Dec 1854-1920?), for herself and her two children: Angeline Louise Culbertson (1889-1996) and William James ‘Jamie’ Culbertson Jr. (1892-?). Culbertson was listed at 1802 Pearl in the 1909- 1920 City Directories.

Page 36
1897 CHARLES KLUGE HOUSE, 1801 San Gabriel (moved). Outlot 15. Brothers Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East
Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s they acquired land from their mother, who had lived on the opposite side of the same block at 1802 Pearl. Charles built this charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road. The L-plan house had a basement. [see William Kluge House]
Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939) & his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861- 1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl in the city directories from 1905 through 1937. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses.

bmcgilvray · #38 06-07-2022, 02:57 PM

Just found this additional thread on holsters and makers from "deep in the heart of Texas." I've been repainting house trim and installing a replacement garage door lately so haven't kept up.

rednichols · #39 06-07-2022, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

I just found something online that may help a little more in determining who was the first designer of the Brill holster. It has been said by some that Charles Kluge was just a superbly talented saddle maker, and how do we know for sure he made holsters. Well I found this:
Larry

https://www.austintexas.gov/edims/do....cfm?id=199534

Judges’ Hill District History
Compiled by Phoebe Allen

Page 13
William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, owned all of Outlot 15 (just north of 16) and built their brick home facing Pearl Street about 1880. Their sons Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s Charles built a charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic at 1801 San Gabriel; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road.

Page 31
c1880 WILLIAM KLUGE HOMESITE, 1802 Pearl (razed). Outlot 15. William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, built a brick home about 1880. City Lot
Register for 1890 indicates that Anna owned all of Outlot 15, with a value of $3500. The Kluges had a saloon and restaurant on Congress. The couple had three children: Henry, Charles, and Mary. By 1881, Anna lived on Pearl ‘between Chestnut and Magnolia’ with two of her sons, Charles and Henry. The Kluges occupied the one-story house with attic floor for several years. The wood frame Victorian home had a front porch.
Their son Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939), a bookkeeper, and his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861-1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl (razed) in the city directories from 1905- 37. Their frame home also had a partial porch with Victorian trim. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses. [see 1897 Charles Kluge House]
1802 Pearl was sold to Angeline Townsend’s daughter, Pauline Townsend Culbertson (3 Dec 1854-1920?), for herself and her two children: Angeline Louise Culbertson (1889-1996) and William James ‘Jamie’ Culbertson Jr. (1892-?). Culbertson was listed at 1802 Pearl in the 1909- 1920 City Directories.

Page 36
1897 CHARLES KLUGE HOUSE, 1801 San Gabriel (moved). Outlot 15. Brothers Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East
Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s they acquired land from their mother, who had lived on the opposite side of the same block at 1802 Pearl. Charles built this charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road. The L-plan house had a basement. [see William Kluge House]
Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939) & his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861- 1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl in the city directories from 1905 through 1937. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses.

Really fabulous find. It confirms my expectation from the Kluge's census appearances, that at least Charles lived in a very wealthy neighborhood judging by the valuations of each property and the price of gold then.

I've an image of Wroe's saddle shop interior that shows as many as two dozen workers; a reminder that in that era, saddlery was big business and certainly not limited to the owner sitting in a corner making holsters and saddles. Unable to work out how to convert the image from png to jpg this time, so will have to wait to post a version that can be seen properly (png files appear on this forum as tiny thumbnails).

boykinlp · #40 06-07-2022, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

Really fabulous find. It confirms my expectation from the Kluge's census appearances, that at least Charles lived in a very wealthy neighborhood judging by the valuations of each property and the price of gold then.

You are absolutely right, Red. If you browse through that link, it is a who's who in early Texas history. The neighborhood was laid out by Austin's first mayor, 6 years before Texas became a state. It also has stories like I posted above for many of the residents of that neighborhood. Here is a little tidbit:

The lots inside the 1839 city plan, as well as “Outlots” beyond the “Original City” grid Edwin Waller laid out, were sold to the highest bidders.
* 1840 Edwin Waller is elected Austin’s first mayor with all 187 votes. Those who purchased outlots in the future Judge’s Hill neighborhood included Dr. Samuel G. Haynie, a four-time mayor of Austin, who arrived in Austin in 1839 to practice medicine and by 1950 had purchased Outlots 10, 11 and 19.

The Judges’ Hill Neighborhood takes its name from the many judges and attorneys who built homes in the area, beginning in 1851 just after Austin was selected as the state capital.
Larry

rednichols · #41 06-08-2022, 02:50 PM

A reminder that the saddlers of old were not necessarily some old man in a corner building saddles. This is W.T. Wroe, the 'other' saddlery with Kluge Bros. in the 1906/07 Austin city directory. I see roughly three dozen men in the image, which is undated but turn of the last century because Wroe appeared in an article with far fewer 'hands' at the very end of the 19th, and became a car/truck sales company by 1915. Wroe, like Kluge and Brill, was a wealthy man.

via paint.jpg

Among such large saddleries we can count Lawrence and Heiser in the very early 20th century, from the articles and images I have on hand.

This all pales in comparison with Emerson Gaylord whose company made saddlery and gunleather for the North during the Civil War: I've a bio on Gaylord stating his peak workforce for leather harness etc was 450 men.

boykinlp · #42 06-08-2022, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

A reminder that the saddlers of old were not necessarily some old man in a corner building saddles. This is W.T. Wroe, the 'other' saddlery with Kluge Bros. in the 1906/07 Austin city directory. I see roughly three dozen men in the image, which is undated but turn of the last century because Wroe appeared in an article with far fewer 'hands' at the very end of the 19th, and became a car/truck sales company by 1915. Wroe, like Kluge and Brill, was a wealthy man.

Among such large saddleries we can count Lawrence and Heiser in the very early 20th century, from the articles and images I have on hand.

Red, were Kluge Brothers and W.T. Wroe Saddlery anywhere close to the size of the big 3, Heiser, Lawrence, and Myres? I had always thought Heiser was the largest, not sure where Lawrence and Myres fall in, but would have thought Kluge and Wroe were a tier down from them at least? And since you mentioned Heiser Saddlery

, and I haven't had the chance to post some pictures of my vintage Heiser Saddle in quite a while, here they are.

Larry

rednichols · #43 06-08-2022, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

Red, were Kluge Brothers and W.T. Wroe Saddlery anywhere close to the size of the big 3, Heiser, Lawrence, and Myres? I had always thought Heiser was the largest, not sure where Lawrence and Myres fall in, but would have thought Kluge and Wroe were a tier down from them at least? And since you mentioned Heiser Saddlery

, and I haven't had the chance to post some pictures of my vintage Heiser Saddle in quite a while, here they are.

Larry

The saddle is great of course. It is my expectation, as yet unproven, that western saddles with the shearling lined skirts are 20th century because that's when saddlers first had the mighty expensive harness stitching machines for sewing them. Otherwise I find it hard to imagine the expense to the saddler of hand sewing all that distance which far exceeds that of a lined gunbelt, for example.

Myres was incredibly small by comparison with Wroe, for example. I have images of the inside of his shop at various times, and news articles stating his employment is 25 in 1955 which according to his son Dale (who was S.D. Myres Jr) was the company's peak year. No images of Heiser that show the shop floor but do have this of Lawrence:

2010 9 11 lawrence (5).jpg

Notice especially all the machinery. Undated, from a current YouTube video that contains an interview of the last Lawrence, Bill Lawrence III who I knew from the trade shows of the 70s and 80s. I captured several images from that YouTube appearance.

So the 'big three' you speak of are from a gunleather collectibility standpoint, but they were not the largest saddleries by far. Remember that after Myres got into gunleather the field had shrunk considerably because of the automobile. When I joined Bianchi Holster in 1970 (in business since 1966) it already had about as many employees as Wroe did circa 1910, while by 1990 it had 300 employees and was not ever a saddlery.

As with JB, the Wroes and Heisers and Lawrences and Brills were money men; they did not themselves make leather products. For that they employed many men in order to generate the net profits that gave the founders their wealth.

rednichols · #44 06-08-2022, 05:15 PM

It surely has to appear that I'm simply an opinionate designer/maker, but I draw my hlstorical knowledge from thousands of obscure references. Here's one of them, the 1913 hearings on tariff schedules involving the harness industry and the notion of protective tariffs against imports from England:

1913 tariff hear (1).jpg

1913 tariff hear (2).jpg

Now notice there the testimony that there were 25,000 'retail saddleries' which refers to shops that make and sell direct; and the value of saddlery sales in USA -- and because of gold prices then, multiply that value by 100. Absolutely huge numbers.

boykinlp · #45 06-09-2022, 03:59 AM

I found another Kluge Brothers tidbit online. Apparently Charles and his brother Henry believed in supporting local groups like the local high school. They bought advertising in, The Comet, a monthly journal of Austin High School. It contained news articles submitted by students and other information of interest to readers. It had a circulation of 700 copies, cost 25 cents per term, or 10 cents for a single copy. Here are pictures of the cover of the journal, the beginning of the first story titled “Greater Texas”, and the advertisement page from the June 1910, Volume 9, Number 8.
Larry

wheelgun610 · #46 07-12-2022, 01:28 AM

Since a few members weren't able to see the photos in my earlier post in this thread, I removed it and am finally getting around to hosting them where I know they'll be visible to all members here.

Anyway, I believe it's safe to think that this holster was made by the Kluge's prior to their time with the AW Brill company. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, feel free to set the record straight. I've had this holster for over 15 years, having purchased it from our own turnerriver via ebay. This one is a perfect fit for a fixed sighted five inch N frame.

Mark

boykinlp · #47 07-12-2022, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelgun610

Since a few members weren't able to see the photos in my earlier post in this thread, I removed it and am finally getting around to hosting them where I know they'll be visible to all members here.

Anyway, I believe it's safe to think that this holster was made by the Kluge's prior to their time with the AW Brill company. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, feel free to set the record straight. I've had this holster for over 15 years, having purchased it from our own turnerriver via ebay. This one is a perfect fit for a fixed sighted five inch N frame.

Mark

Mark, so glad you came back to post pictures. I can see them now, and your holster is beautiful, and definitely made for a thinner belt. As you know, since some these were being made for the Texas Rangers, and were to be more concealable, I suppose they would wear them on thin pants belts instead of the much thicker gun belts.

The floral carving pattern is assuredly the same as mine, and done by Kluge. Since I am a righty, I wish mine was like yours, but that is OK, I can wear 2 guns using it.

Thanks again for posting.
Larry

boykinlp · #48 08-11-2022, 05:39 PM

Did one of you folks get this Kluge holster today?
Larry

Papa Lee · #49 08-11-2022, 05:55 PM

I looked at it.

rednichols · #50 08-11-2022, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boykinlp

Did one of you folks get this Kluge holster today?
Larry

I corresponded w/ the seller and told him what he had; he should've stuck to his guns on price, he gave it away :-).

FYI, this is the earliest known of the Brills; one attributed to Butch Cassidy that appears to bear no Brill marking (but the auction page claimed one anyway in which case it didn't belong to Butch). Butch was killed 1908 and the scabbards appeared 1905 w/out the Brill marking. The carving of these earliest Brills is unique from the later Rabensburgs:

1905-1908 butch cassidy (2).jpg

Either the cuff has been moved later -- the cuff is meant to be up around the frame -- to fit a wider belt (we have many photo examples of this surgery) or Charles Kluge was just beginning to perfect his design. The perfected version always has the cuff at the frame and then the fold moved further from the holster for a wider belt.

This one for the wider belt is Jerry Campbell's so very late 1930s when the future FBI agent was at Oklahoma City P.D. with Jelly Bryce.

Attachment 588080

Both men joined Treasury 1934 and are better known for their Myres Threepersons holsters. This is Jelly:

Attachment 588081