Just handled a beautiful nickle 586 that was taken off a suspect and placed into evidence. Why do you guys have to scratch numbers into the side plate. Can't you just put it into a zip lock-seal it and mark the outside-It positively breaks my heart to see a georgeous gun being defiled like that
I don't mind y'all doing it to a lorcin or high point, but a Smith??? or for that matter a Colt 1911??????? I don't know what hurt more, that nickle 586 with the number scratched in it, or that Model 21 recovered that the perp had made into a coach gun.

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Forum consigliere

Certainly does seem like a shame. If I had a gun stolen and it was recovered would they do that to my gun while waiting to for the thieves trial to take place? I can only imagine the look on my face as the system hands me my property and tells me the thief got two years probation.

Around here they take the grips off and etch the case # on the frame underneath. I bought a nickel mod 19 years ago. After a couple months I pulled the grips and there was a case #. A friend ran the # and the gun was used by an old gent to commit suicide. I guess his heirs sold it. The gun left my ownership soon after. Now I always take the grips off before buying a gun. Always a good idea anyway, I've learned.

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SOS USA

A cable tie with a plastic tag through the triggerguard works well. Mark the plastic tag with a Sharpie pen and you'll never lose it.

My wife’s brother is a detective for a local PD. He stopped their department from engraving guns taken into evidence that have a serial number on them, since there’s no need to do anything but record the number.

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"I also cook."

Same here, we use tags and cable ties on the trigger guard. But if I were to engrave a case number on a firearm it would always be on the slide, it would always be large print and it would always be "NOTASMITH584931". 'Cause I wouldn't engrave a Smith.

I write the serial number down in my report along with any distinguishing marks, scratches, etc, unless it's been drilled out. I haven't had any challenged so far.

When I impound a car, I don't inscribe my mark on that...so why would I have to on a gun?

In my day we found no reason to deface any weapon we took as evidence. Our only problem was if the gun was coated with blood we could not remove it until after all court proceedings. By then it was probably very rusty.

[QUOTE=MaximumLawman;135488156]I write the serial number down in my report along with any distinguishing marks, scratches, etc, unless it's been drilled out. I haven't had any challenged so far.[QUOTE]

Plus I wrap a piece of colored tape around the trigger guard and write the case number and initials on the tape. There is no need to deface a gun, or any other item of evidence for that matter.

That should be grounds for an execution!!!

I voluntarily turned over my Model 36 to the police because my ex-wife hide it on me and wouldn't tell me were it was, but would tell the police. I let them take it for self keeping 'til things cooled down. When I got it back six months later, they had scratched the case number on the bottom of the trigger guard. You have to look close to see it, but my question is WHY must they do this?

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Dick

Seems like it would make sense to ziptie a label to the trigger guard as some have said for convience and log the serial# in case someone switches tags. Engraving someone else's property is vandalism, and isn't that a crime?

Huh. My 28-2 has a number engraved into the frame under the grips, TX-something or other. I figured it was a prior owner's driver license number. Wonder if it's got some additional history...

Good for him! I have never understood having to engrave identifying information on anything with a serial number. When we recover a stolen car, we certainly don't scratch our badge number and date on the hood!!!

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LEO since 1981.

we never engraved guns...hang tag and into an evidence bag it went..the REAL shame was how many very nice guns were simply crushed for a host of reasons

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

I HAD A FEW SMITHS THAT HAD BEEN DONE LIKE THAT,PRETTY DUMB THING TO DO IF YOU ASK ME

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

That was the unanimous acclaimation among the Judge, all the DA's and the defense attorneys present that day. Summary execution without delay

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Forum consigliere

I always thought the guns had to be marked by the officer to maintain the chain of custody because those darn lawyers would challenge everything trying to get their crook... I mean client off, even though they were guilty But.. be that as it may, I always marked under the grip if I absolutely had to mark the gun, even on cheapies.

Hi:
I asked this same question for all of a 45 year career. After latent prints, wipe down, place in an evidence bag, seal with evidence tape, record the make, model, caliber, and serial number on the evidence tag number, post in the evidence log, place in the evidence locker. End of story. Unfortunately every non-gun knowledgeble Officer that touches the weapon feels he/she has to scratch/cut their ID # into the weapon. I waited for years for an owner to bring a law suit against every Officer that caused damage to the weapon.
Jimmy

We don't scratch names/case numbers into firearms, or anything else with a serial number.
Shellcasings, recovered bullets, things like that, yes.....
we don't even scratch up HiPoints....

Our sheriff's office back home wrote into policy that you were not to permantly alter the gun/scratch a case number etc into it. Most newer LEO's are taught to not alter evidence in any permant way now, or at least that's what both of my acadamy classes taught us.

I think it stemmed from a time before serial numbers were placed on guns.

Our Dept. used to scratch the officers initials and badge # on the gun, but after I took over all evidence, I got them to stop doing that and use the serial number for evidentiary purposes.

I have an M15 with a number inscribed on the plate. I always thought it was a police serial number but maybe it was stolen at one time? Is there a way to run the number and find out?

post a pic, we will give it a shot at trying to tell you what kinda number it is

When I was a 17 year old a friend and I were out shooting our .22s and found out that we weren't to be shooting there.(after shooting there as long as I can remember)Well,the Fla.Trooper decided to take my "old winchester"rather than my friends new savage.I went to the Gun jail after a couple of days to get my rifle....Stupid idiots put my gun in a plastic bag to rust.Surface rust EVERYWHERE.Man was I mad and more than a few cops in the station felt the same way about it.None the less it was later stolen out of my car.My Granddad gave me that one.
Ramble off,D.G.

As a court certified, including Federal Court, expert in police procedures and investigations I can tell you there is absolutely no reason for this kind of vandalism to an item of property that has a stamped serial number. This **** went away more than 30 years ago. It's nothing but intentional destruction of someone's property.

Or suppository with a low brass load.

Caj,

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before....but the answer to your question as to why cops deface guns scratching their number or mark into them is simply: LAWYERS!

Sometime, someplace there was a trial going on and some scumbag armed robber's lawyer said; "Officer, is that the same gun, knife, pipe...... my client used in the robbery?"

And the officer said "Yep".

And the lawyer said: "How do you KNOW it's the same gun, knife, pipe..........."

"Uh, well, I took it out of your client's pocket, took it to the station and it's been sitting in the property room in the envelope with my name on it for the last year...."

"But how do you KNOW that that's the identical one? Could someone have replaced it with one of a similar serial number to frame my client? Can you prove you actually handled this gun...knife....pipe...."


And then it became police procedure for an officer to make his mark or indelibly mark the evidence in some other way because the lawyers would stop at no effort, no matter how small or nonsensical, to get their clients off!

The cops didn't start doing this arbitrarily...the answer is lawyers.....

I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned earlier as well And I'm all for chain of custody and all that and know about identifying the particular flat iron used to bludgeon the head of the victim-but come on---the darn gun has a serial number for cryin' out loud-and what used to be OK ought to have been changed by now-there are ample ways to safeguard chain without using an ice pick or an engraver. Maybe the LEO who did this one was a Ruger or a Colt man

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Forum consigliere

I recently bought a nickle Model 19-4 from a dealer who sells seized firearms...It is in beautifull shape, and I got it for $350.
However...
The authorities electropenciled a case number and "exh.2" on:
1. Left side of frame under cylinder
2. left side of barrel
3.bottom of barrel
4.underside of top strap
Yes, they engraved it in four places!

I cant complain too much...if it were perfect, I probably couldnt have afforded it...besides, I bought it to shoot, and having done so, find my model 19-4 to be an excellent shooter.
Here is the post I made when I got it, with pics:
My $350 Model 19-4 Snub

Sgt. 207 is on the mark here.

Back when some guns were mfgr. w/o a serial # (some .22 and shotguns) is what allegedly prompted this practice, along with multiple guns from the same mfgr. with the same serial #, i.e., early S&W Models, even in the same calibers. The GCA of '68 pretty much eliminated that, but the possibility still exists that duplicate serial #s are out there - look at 1911s that have the same serial # from WW2 Colt and Ithica, I believe). Like others have mentioned, supervisors have to intervene. I threatened to charge one of my guys with Malicious Destruction on the spot if he marked it in a visible spot, if marking was necessary at all (rare). There is a sickening lack of knowledge about firearms stuff out there, like the time a Detective recovered some Nyclad Hollowpoints from a dirtball and put in the Roll Call book that the bad guys now had Teflon bullets in quantity! That required educating both he and his boss, and correcting the mis-information. These things are an institutional practice that will have a hard time dying.

JMHO

A little story on that very thing....While flying to Chicago for a subject wanted by the State of Missouri 1986 I was unfortunate enough to be a victim of a plane crash in the Dan Ryan Woods. Two Chicago Cops got me to Christ Hospital in 28 minutes. Long recovery 10 operations in critical care for a month...One year later thank GOD I went back to work...Presiding Judge flew to Chicago the evening f the crash to check on my condition and while there the CPD sent my shield, gun, and jacket, out to the hospital, they said if they logged it in it would have to be engraved with a (property) or evidence number number. The Judge talked to the Lt. and at that time the Sgt. that pulled me out of a tree., He told them are you kidding he will kill somebody if he lives. They said in my semi conscious state I had told one of the doctors, when he mentioned that they would cut off my brand new M.L. Leddy boots. I mumbled I'll kill the SOB that cuts off my boots...I of course remember none of this and had a hard time believing anything at the time.....Don't mess with a good gun, or a pair of handmade boots. Thanks Lt. Freyer, and Sgt Cornfield for my life and my pistol (no engraved numbers), and my hand made boots. Lt. Ken Freyer RIP, and Commander Bob Cornfield ret. You are the best.......

Great story-thanks for sharing-Judge sounds like a pretty stand up guy too

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Forum consigliere

I also blame the lawyers. Prosecutors maybe a little less than defense attorneys, but I can always find a reason to blame practically everything on the lawyers.

As a young police officer in 1968, I was taught to take off the grips and place my initials and the case number on the frame where it was inconspicuous but could be located if necessary to prove, in Court, that this was the gun I'd seized, recovered, etc.

I thought it no big deal to mark them there.

Then, I was involved in an "incident" where my supervisor had to take my gun, hold it for evidence, etc. When the aftermath was over and the gun returned, my nice Model 19 was all scratched up under the grips with names, case number, dates.

I was irritated, but grateful, at least, the marks weren't readily visible.

Fast forward past law school, becoming a prosecutor, teaching at the Academy, etc.

Our Florida law is pretty clear. The defense attorney MUST allege tampering with the evidence to challenge the chain of custody on MOST items. Guns, knives, hammers, bats, etc. fall under this case law.

That means the defense attorney must have some fact(s) that suggest tampering before he can start hammering the witness about whether this is really the gun, knife or....

So, we now teach that there is no need to mark the item IF it can be readily identified by the officer if challenged. A serial number, for example, recorded in the officer's report, the log where the item is placed in evidence, then taken out for testing, then returned to evidence and then brought to Court will suffice to win any challenge to the chain.

Hair, DNA, blood and other evidence still needs a chain, but the above illustration still will easily suffice in Florida.

Bob

Put it on Gunbroker with a copy of the reports and mugshots from your "incident". Some cop queer will pay 5 times what the gun is worth for the "back story"!

He was a real stand up guy. I had worked in his jurisdiction in 70s and came back to his district at his suggestion. After returning I was assigned on a fugitive case that, what else had to fly. The flight that ended in a tree wasn't my assignment but at last minute he had ask me to fill in. He always felt bad about it....It was the job, now 24 years later it is only a ,sound weird, but not all bad memories. Good people took care of me. made a lot of friends while in Chicago. Every day I was there, a copper from the 23rd district came to see me. they took my wife anywhere she had to go and the CPD Chaplains made daily visits. I was the guest speaker four years later at Freyer's retirement party over 500 CPD Officers were in attendance He was a good guy obviously.

MaximumLawman-the photos weren't mugshots, and I sure don't have them, let alone want to see them again.

As for the old 19, I still have it (it's our "bathroom" gun and I think I'll hang on to it. You all do have a gun in your bathroom, don't you?).

I carried it the rest of my time as a LEO, shot and shot it, finally shot it fairly loose, and had one of the guys from the S&W Custom Shop, who came to my FFL's for big sales, redo it and replace the cylinder.

Bob

No need for weapons in the bathroom, I eat a lot of kapusta!

That was a standard pratice that was used by most accredited agencies across the country. It is still in our manuals but have only seen it done a few times in recent years. Evidence tags attached to guns with twist wire or lead seal tags now. Never saw a reason to destroy a perfectly good gun that would be going back to the real owner.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

It's a stupid policy from several decades ago. It makes absolutely no sense when the gun itself has a unique serial number. I've never done it and never will!

Some agencies record the serial numbers,enter them,seal, and package the firearm properly. There is no need to engrave info onto the item to maintain the proper "Chain of Custody". The departments still engraving the firearms must be following old time guidelines from years prior......completely outdated............not to mention Wrong on the finer pieces arggggh!

Old thread CPR...

You're supposed to engrave something like your initials on firearms, knives, some other evidence. The FBI academy teaches that. Chain of evidence etc. But you're not supposed to do it on the slide of a 1911 with an ice pick. You're supposed to do it in a tiny, out of the way place where it's not visible unless you know where to look. Then when the opposing atty asks "How can you be absolutely certain this is the gun you took from my client that night?" You can ask to see the evidence, look in the "secret place" with a magnifier and say "Because, counselor, my initials are stamped into the inner ledge of the frame, under the grips, right here. You may use my magnifier to see it if you like"

They make a little stamper thing that puts three initials into a space the size of the 'D' in a penny date marking. It looks like a little screwdriver. You pick an out of the way place, set the punch end on the spot where you want the mark, then tap the other end with your handcuffs.


Sgt Lumpy

I have a old colt single action that is re serialised by the LAPD. I understand they dont do that any more.

A safe assumption that this did not happen in Kalifornistan.

Maybe the practice has since changed, but in NY many guns were crushed. Seems an awful waste of $ and fine guns to me. I often wondered if some of the guys doing the crushing had real nice collections, JK. It'd sure be a depressing job for me, a dream job for a gun hater I suppose. Do the guys that burn all the weed get a munchies stipend?

[QUOTE=Snowbandit;135488665 It's nothing but intentional destruction of someone's property.[/QUOTE]

Correct! Larry

They haven't taught that in years.

I retired from the Navy in '94 and we still had to use black ink for everything.

"Because we've always done it that way."

Now they want blue ink because it makes it easier to spot copies. That should last until they come up with printers that can copy colors...


... oh wait...