C&R questions

Are there record keeping requirements lile the regular FFL?
DO you open yourself up to inspections like the regular FFL?
What is the age of the guns you can buy & sell? I heard it was 50 years which would mean that as of now all guns made 1960 and before are eligible.
Is it worth the hassle??

you do have to keep a log of all transactions and also the ffl's of those you buy from. all that info is included in the packet they send once you receive your license.

as far as visits I understand they reserve the right with reasonable notice just like regular ffl's, but in practice I don't think they are all that concerned at this point with c&r visits unless there is reason to believe a person is misusing(is that even a word?) their license.

yes the 50 year deal is what I understand too but there are many guns that are less than 50 years that also make the list for various reasons.

lastly is it worth it? well that depends on if you have an interest in those types of guns. if so yes.

final note..... one day if the govt decides (well attempts) to confiscate all weaponry no doubt they will begin with ffl holders. they know where you live and they have proof you own guns. so you would be part of the group that gets the first knock. you may think this is just paranoia and at least for the present you would be correct. then again most of us probably agree that acquiring our guns "off the books", as in intrastate personal sales etc.,. is the best method of arming oneself. further, unless you have a genuine use for a license my advice would be to stay away from govt lists and licensing.

hope that helps.

CAJUNLAWYER said:

Is it worth the hassle??

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MidwayUSA and Brownell's offer their dealer discount to C&R FFL holders. That alone is likely worth far more than $30 spread over how many years the license is for these days.

I have had mine for several years and never used it, not one single time. Everytime I find a gun that qualifies for it's use the retarded owner wont accept a C+R. There were at one time alot of neat guns out there for sale from dealers/distributors that would accept a C+R but those days are probably gone. If I had it to do over again I would not have gotten it and will likely not renew the stupid thing.

I believe it depends on your area of interest. If your area is more recent shooting grade guns, it probably isn't worth it. If you like pre-war guns, and travel to gun shows and auctions, it is definitely worth it.

I keep the same "bound book" as any 01 FFL, and log only those guns either purchased or sold using my C&R. Even if you have several guns that are C&R but owned prior to your getting a license, you must list then when you sell them. To sell a gun, you do not have to get a 4473 filled out by the buyer, but just abide by whatever the person to person laws are in your state.

The money I have saved on purchases from several on line suppliers has more than paid for my C&R. The cost saved by not having to have guns shipped via FFL's has saved me enough over the past three years I could pay for another S&W.

When you decide you no longer want to have the C&R you can "destroy" your bound book, and do not have to send it to the ATF.

The one question I see keep popping up on various sites is: Do I have to enter existing firearms in my collection in a C&R bound book. If not, during an inspection how do I prove I had the firearms prior to obtaining a C&R. If yes, then how do I document where the firearms came from? Some I've owned so long I've forgotten. Maybe if you just put a notation "Owned prior to C&R" in that block.

I've seen this question kicked around for years, but so far no one has been able to provide a link either to a reg that spells this out of an ATF interpretation letter. I let mine lapse a few years ago so there may well be something new reg wise I'm not aware of.

walnutred said:

The one question I see keep popping up on various sites is: Do I have to enter existing firearms in my collection in a C&R bound book. If not, during an inspection how do I prove I had the firearms prior to obtaining a C&R. If yes, then how do I document where the firearms came from? Some I've owned so long I've forgotten. Maybe if you just put a notation "Owned prior to C&R" in that block.

I've seen this question kicked around for years, but so far no one has been able to provide a link either to a reg that spells this out of an ATF interpretation letter. I let mine lapse a few years ago so there may well be something new reg wise I'm not aware of.

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I don't see how anyone could require prior transactions. also the burden of proof as far as when you bought a particular gun would seem to be on the govt if they wanted to make that claim. why would they? now I realize applying sound logic to anything govt is unwise but how else are we to operate?

then there is the question of all questions as far as I am concerned. what is the primary purpose of a c & r license? if it is to insure that listed guns are sent(via mail for the most part) to a lawful purchaser then why would it be required to list guns that would have to be purchased through an ffl 1 and which would go through the background check?

since there seems no answer to these concerns we document all we can and just carry on. ours is not to question, but to do with a smile.

"Previously-owned" guns that are C&R eligible are only required to be entered upon selling. Under that requirement I figured there is no harm in just entering them upon getting my FFL03. I just listed the "acquisition" column as "previously owned". (Plus, by being in the book could help in case of theft.)

If you are concerned that you want to keep as many guns "off the books" as possible, maybe a C&R license isn't something to be considered.
There's also been much discussion about "buying a gun without using the license". I read it as any C&R eligible gun that is acquired, regardless of where or how, needs to be entered. (Even "in-state" and/or from a private party.)

deadin said:

There's also been much discussion about "buying a gun without using the license". I read it as any C&R eligible gun that is acquired, regardless of where or how, needs to be entered. (Even "in-state" and/or from a private party.)

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so it's like we give up our right to "loophole" purchases on all C&R type guns? I didn't think of that? what if I buy a gun then the next day it goes on the list? well we can go forever with this.

If I buy a gun today that was made in 1962 it is not a C&R and doesn't need to be entered. Next year (or "to the day" if you have the manufacture day) it will be your choice whether to enter it or not, just like guns acquired before the license. However, it will need to be entered if you sell or trade it off after it becomes 50 years old.

It's pretty simple, guns that are 50 years old (or on the special list) need to be entered in the book when acquired OR disposed of AFTER issuance of the license.

Why complicate things any more than they need to be?
I prefer to enter them when they become C&R elgible, then there will be no questions if I am ever audited. If it's a C&R and it's in my safe, it's also in my book.

(But that's just me. YMMV.)

I think the term "off the books" and "loophole" are being misused here. Those terms generally imply some illegal or at least subversive attempt to circumvent the law.

I hope that what is being described is the legal transfer of a privately owned firearm from one citizen who is qualified to own it to another citizen who is qualified to buy it. When done within the state of residency of both parties this is completely legal (at least for now) and there is no reason to characterize it otherwise.

Regarding the original question, I have had a C&R license for several years. Most of the guns that I like are over 50 years old, but many of the ones that I end up buying are also from folks within my state (so they fit the circumstance described in the previous paragraph). It is handy, however, to be able to send a copy of the C&R license to an out of state seller or an auction house whenever the need arises. Saving the FFL transfer fee in only one such instance will practically pay for the three year license fee.

Bob

bettis1 said:

I think the term "off the books" and "loophole" are being misused here. Those terms generally imply some illegal or at least subversive attempt to circumvent the law.

I hope that what is being described is the legal transfer of a privately owned firearm from one citizen who is qualified to own it to another citizen who is qualified to buy it. When done within the state of residency of both parties this is completely legal (at least for now) and there is no reason to characterize it otherwise.

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bob,

nothing illegal or even subversive is being suggested here. the use of especially "loophole" or maybe even "off the books" is often used by the gun control media to imply that illegal acts are taking place at gunshows and the like. that is just not true. what gun grabbers call "loopholes" are not that at all. they are simply sellers/buyers engaging in transactions that are perfectly legal.

no doubt there are those who take advantage of the law and unfortunately us law abiding gun owners may be punished for it one day. but a law abiding citizen engaging in a legal transaction is not suddenly conducting an illegal activity simply because he refers to it as a "loophole". he is simply borrowing a term invented by the gun control crowd.

Michael,

I knew what you meant. I just wanted to state it clearly in case one of the anti-gun advocates might read it and use it out of context. I think that all of us who are responsible gun owners do bend over backwards to be sure that we comply with the law.

Bob

Interesting discussion.
Coincidentally, I just received my C&R license in the mail today. I haven't receive the "packet" with all of the information yet. That is supposed to come separately about 10 days after the license.

I mainly got my license to save on transfer fees. The cheapest fee around my area is $35.00

The C&R license costs $30.00 and is good for 3 years. In my case it'll pay for itself after my first C&R purchase.

I'll be able to save so much money by spending so much money!!
That's what my wife tells me when she goes clothes shopping and hits a lot of sales

About two weeks ago, I received my C&R license within 30 days of having made application here in Texas.

To date I haven't received a packet.

However, I've already used my C&R license to purchase a handgun which will be shipped as soon as the seller receives the mailed copy.

This first transaction has saved the cost of the license.

And CDNN Investments offers discounts and sales tax savings (Texas residents) for customers with a C&R license.

re: Government radar

The only firearms I own that are known to exist in government records are those transferred by my FFL and the one SBR for which I have a federal tax stamp.

Besides, I've probably been on the FBI radar since campus demonstrations back in the '60's.

H Richard said:

I believe it depends on your area of interest. If your area is more recent shooting grade guns, it probably isn't worth it. If you like pre-war guns, and travel to gun shows and auctions, it is definitely worth it.

I keep the same "bound book" as any 01 FFL, and log only those guns either purchased or sold using my C&R. Even if you have several guns that are C&R but owned prior to your getting a license, you must list then when you sell them. To sell a gun, you do not have to get a 4473 filled out by the buyer, but just abide by whatever the person to person laws are in your state.

The money I have saved on purchases from several on line suppliers has more than paid for my C&R. The cost saved by not having to have guns shipped via FFL's has saved me enough over the past three years I could pay for another S&W.

When you decide you no longer want to have the C&R you can "destroy" your bound book, and do not have to send it to the ATF.

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When did the C&R rules change about the 4473 and not turning in the bound book to the ATF? The rules I was under required both. If you sold to a non-FFL the 4473 was required and the ATF wanted the book when you didn't renew the license.

Pecos

For at least the 10 yrs I've had my C&R ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm not interested in getting a C&R, but I've never quite understood the 50 year rule. This applies to any firearm that is 50 years old, regardless of whether or not the design or ammunition used is still in production?

For example, an 1911 made in 1960 would be a C&R, even though it is exactly the same and fires the same ammunition as one made today?

My C&R is on the way, I have been "on the fence" for years and decided to just get it. For $30 for 3 years it's a no brainer. A lot of sellers are pretty gay about not taking C&R's for guns that are clearly eligible,don't assume that every S&W revolver made in 1961 or prior is an automatic "go" for your C&R, lots of GunBroker sellers do not take C&R's .............truth be told I just applied for it so I can buy "common shooter grade" stuff from the distributors like CZ82's,Tokarevs, Nagant revolvers and Mosin rifles, all of which will be available cheap for a while yet...... I already have plenty of other guns, I just figured I would keep the license for 3 years, see if it's worth it, and if not, just not renew it.

As far as being on the "ATF radar"by having a C&R, I think anyone who doesn't think the ATF already knows who owns guns is just fooling themselves.....

No, they can't just "come in" to your house, they have to make an appt. with you and you have the option of bringing your bound book and C&R guns to your local ATF office. Some guys who have been audited say the ATF just asked them to bring their bound book......it doesn't make sense for them to want you to pack up hundreds of guns in your car if you choose to have the audit done at the nearest field office.......I know some guys who have hundreds and hundreds of guns on their C&R license. Plus they can only audit you once a year, worst case scenario you get audited 3 times in 3 years. I know lots of guys who have C&R's, some have had it for over 10 years and never heard a peep from ATF, some have been audited several times.

If you buy one $80 Mosin rifle and a $200 CZ82, you have already saved well over $30 in the NICS fees and transfer costs. If I can get a few 50+ year old S&W .38's than it would be a bonus.

The C&R is the only way to possess a suppressor in Missouri.

One still has to pay for the $200 tax stamp.

I think that MO is the only state that does this. Now, in case I locate an old M60 (and can afford it!) I will be in business.