SA Range Officer Range Report UPDATE...I got it back from SA! See Post 22

I took out my new Springfield Armory Range Officer today and did some shooting. I did all my shooting at 25 yards off a rest. Two of the RO targets were shot by me, one of them was shot by a good friend of mine who is a deputy sherrif. (His was the 8 shot group.) I have included targets shot at the same distance with a S&W 586 (I had a called flyer on this one), and a S&W 41.

About a month ago, one of my shooting buddies buught a Range Officer, and all of us shot good groups with it. Sorta wish I'd kept a target from his gun... Right now, I am somewhere between moderately and severely disappointed.

The way I see it, I can:

1. Send it back to Springfield Armory and politely ask that they diagnose and repair my new pistol.

or

2. Load it, leave it in the nightstand for home defense, and be glad I didn't spend even more money on a TRP or Trophy Match. Quote from SA's descrpition below.

in a higher price.

or

3. Try to sell. (I really don't like selling a gun that I bought new and filled out a 4473 on.)

What do you folks think?

Rawhyde



UPDATE 3/14/11

I spoke with Springfield Armory this morning about my accuracy issues. The lady was polite, and looked at the same pic I posted. She gave me a RMA number and e-mailed me a FedEx label. That was the good news.

The (kinda) bad news is:
She thinks my pistol is "just barely" out of spec somehow.
The accuracy spec is a 3.5" group at 25 yards.

The customer service lady conferenced in a Custom Shop rep and I learned that for $500, they could hand fit my pistol to the point where it would shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards.

I plan to strip the gun, give it a good cleaning, and compose a nice letter and prepare individual photos of the targets, then send it all in.

I hope that I get a good result, but I am still perplexed that they consider a 3.5" group at 25 yards to be acceptable. It does seem like adequate accuracy for a defensive pistol, but I think it comes up WAY short for any pistol used for recreational shooting/plinking. If any S&W or Colt revolver with a 4", 6", or longer barrel couldn't shoot tighter than a 3.5" group at 25 yards, I'd think something was wrong with it, or that it just HATED that load.

Springfield Armory asked me what I did consider to be acceptable accuracy for a 10 shot group @ 25 yards, and I answered that a ragged hole about like a silver dollar was what I expected. (I can't shoot like that every time, but occasionally, I shoot a cylinder full or a magazine full without jerking a shot.) If a ~$700 Distinguished Combat Magnum can shoot that well, why can't a ~$700 competition ready .45 ACP do it? She told me that I was expecting WAY too much from a .45 and that my expectations weren't realistic.

I called up Les Baer Custom this morning, and learned that they guarantee a 3" group at 50 yards, and have an "Accuracy Package" option for another $300 that guarantees 1.5" at 50 yards. The sad truth is that I can't see well enough or hold well enough to determine whether a pistol can meet either of those standards, but I gotta say that it'd certainly be a lot of fun and a great challenge to try.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I love to get a gun that is more accurate than I am and strive to shoot up to its level.

I'm not a Competition Shooter, I just enjoy shooting with my friends. We punch paper, we shoot groups, and we toss softballs, tennis balls, and other similar objects downrange and see how far away we can shoot them. (Just got some new Do All self healing targets to play with last weekend!) We just like to have fun, smell some burning gunpowder, and improve our shooting.

If your not happy then definetly send it back! I'm not up on Springfields newest but it seems to be ok for general defense duty.
Our they advertised as being a match pistol or just a hi-end 1911? Dale

Some of those impacts look like keyholes to me.

Cyrano said:

Some of those impacts look like keyholes to me.

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I thought so too. Hearing it from you confirms my suspicion. Those were Hornady RN FMJ bullets. I shot Hornady, Magtech, and Master ammo. There was no significant difference in group size among the different types or by swapping shooters. I wasn't shooting my absolute best today, but the groups with the other guns were pretty good.

Read the article in April 2010 GUNS magazine by Massad Ayoob.

It's online so I guess I can post the link.

GUNS Magazine Digital April 2011

Springfield Armory is real good with their customer service. Depends on what they claim the gun should do. On their XD and XDm they claim and test, 2" at 25 yards. If it's not that they will check the gun.

Have you got 500 rounds through it yet? In my experience (and by the instructions sheets in many 1911 new boxes) you need t break in a new 1911 with at least 500 rounds. It seems t settle everything down to their proper places. Also, have you tried more than one load? Some guns just don't like particular loads. SA has a pretty good reputation for reliability and accuracy.

After 500 or so rounds if it's still not grouping 2" or less at 25 yards send it back. I had to send my target SA back twice and they finally, just barely got it within the 2" they claim its good for.

Not real thrilled about having to do that on such an expensive gun (or any gun for that matter) but I will say that SA was easy to work with during the exchanges.

Update in the first post....

Not to be a jerk, but I think expecting the same accuracy from a ~$700 S/A Range Officer as a Les Baer ~$2,000+ is a little unrealistic. Seems like expecting a Chevy Cruze to handle like a Corvette. Just out of curiousity, did Les Baer quote you an OTD price on a custom with Accuracy Package? Cause I am guessing you can buy 2 more Range Officer's for the price they'll quote you and still have money for ammo. You might find sending it to a custom shop like Cylinder & Slide for an accuracy package beneficial--there are tons of custom shops out there, this is just the first one that came to mind.

novalty said:

Not to be a jerk, but I think expecting the same accuracy from a ~$700 S/A Range Officer as a Les Baer ~$2,000+ is a little unrealistic. Seems like expecting a Chevy Cruze to handle like a Corvette. Just out of curiousity, did Les Baer quote you an OTD price on a custom with Accuracy Package? Cause I am guessing you can buy 2 more Range Officer's for the price they'll quote you and still have money for ammo. You might find sending it to a custom shop like Cylinder & Slide for an accuracy package beneficial--there are tons of custom shops out there, this is just the first one that came to mind.

Click to expand...

You're not being a jerk, and it's not fair to expect a $700 gun to shoot like an expensive custom gun.

Likewise, I don't think it's a good deal for a new $700 pistol to shoot no better than my buddy's beat up $300 Norinco. Last month, another one of my shooting buddies got a Range Officer, and his shoots 1-1/2" to 2" groups at 25 yards from his hand or mine. I just want mine somewhere in that ballpark. I was stunned to learn that Springfield considered a 3-1/2" group to be "within spec". I would have kept my money in my pocket if that spec had been on their website.

I just called Les Baer because they are a very highly regarded pistolmaker. I wanted some basis for comparison. I was just excited to learn what exceptional levels of accuracy they claim, and I am seriously considering saving my pennies and dimes to get one.

I'm going to see what this gun does when it returns. If it doesn't shoot like the one my buddy got, I'm going to sell it and put that money into a Les Baer fund.

3.50 inches at 25 yards is more than the diameter of the 10-ring at that distance -- 3.36 inches. If I was SA, I'd be ashamed to ask a customer for another $500 on top of $700 already laid out to make the gun right. I don't care about the group size -- no pistol using good quality factory ammo should keyhole -- and those are definitely keyholes.

When the CS rep said "slightly out of spec" she was hanging a fig leaf of gigantic proportions. There is something wrong with the barrel, IMO. Most likely culprits are poor rifling or a barrel that is out of spec in terms of diameter (too large), or damage to the barrel crown. I've never had a problem with a Springfield barrel, but then again, I replace them with Karts or Bar-Stos.

This is why some of us lay out $1800 to get a truly hand-built gun (not a Baer or a Kimber or any of the other "semi-customs") that will shoot < 2.0 inch groups all day at 50 yards.

The best bullseye gunsmiths I know are David Sams, former head of the AMU's gunsmithing program, and Robert and Sandy Garrett of Northern Virginia Gun Works. These guys will still do an old-fashioned peen and squeeze job to get a good slide to frame fit, but the new way of building accurate 1911s is to start with a Caspian oversized naked frame and slide and a "Marine cut" Kart or Bar-Sto barrel, and to hand-fit everything till it perfectly meshes and locks up tighter than a bank vault. You can't get closer tolerances using any other method, and the guns built this way stay exceedingly accurate for a long, long time.

Sorry for the slight digression, but it bothers me to see the gun companies marketing 1911s as "match grade" when they ain't even close. I'd make 'em get it right, or, demand my money back.


Bullseye

I agree with your accessment of the S/A Range Officer. If it doesn't live up to your expectation when you receive it back from S/A you might as well move on, I had to do that with a S&W 4566TSW. Loved the gun, but I just couldn't hit with it. Selling it and moving is better than throwing more money at it trying to figure out what is going to make it better for you--when you have lost faith in the gun. Not that your Range Officer or the 4566STW I had were bad guns, as my brother-in-law could shoot tight groups with it, and you have a buddy that shoots tight groups--you may find like I did it just isn't the gun for you. I replaced my 45 with a S&W 1911 (108284 target model) and from the first range session my grouping was far superior to the 4566TSW.

S&W 4566TSW Target 10 yards


S&W 1911 (108284) Target 10 yards


This is in no way a symbol of the accuracy of either gun, as I am a terrible shot and don't claim to be good, but rather a comparison of how accurate I was with both guns.

I remember reading an article a while back where it was said that 4-inch groups at 25 yards is now the new measuring stick that all gun companies are going by with their handguns, and from what I have seen, your gun is not alone in this matter. I certainly would not accept groups like that from a gun with that type of price tag. My last 1911, a Para Ordnance Warthog with its 3-inch barrel could produce groups like that and better at 25 yards. What I find totally out of line is a company asking you for more money to get even a reasonable lever of accuracy. What I would tell them is that if I wanted to buy a gun that gives groups like a out of the box Glock or plain jane .45, I would have bought one.
I hear this though from more shooters all the time, why are some of these guns, with all of these modern manufacturing techniques, making guns that seem to shoot lousy groups? I wish there was a good answer, but I am thinking that its like a car company. You can have that performance car, they look good, but for more money, that car will run better because we'll sell you the V8. For more money than that,we will sell you the bigger V8 and other options. I am wondering if gun companies are doing the same accuracy wise. For the basics, you can have that 1911, it looks good, but it will do ok. That certainly sounds what they are doing here.

It is so they can offer a large price range of models, and also offer "Accuracy Packages" from their "Performance Center." Assuming a likely comparison is $700 or so S&W 1911 to the Doug Koenig, as the S/A Range Officer to a TRP.

Rawhyde I PM'd you an interest link with target photos of a S/A Range Officer shot from Ransom Rest @ 25yards.

3.5-inches at 25-yards used to be common with Government model Colt .45s. I shot many, many that would go out to 5-inches, or even more. Nowadays, we do expect more, but I think your one-ragged-hole expectation is unrealistic. The RO is a production grade gun intended for the run & gun type matches at club level where high precision is not at a premium. It's not bullseye competition gun.

The best general guide (i.e., realistic) for determining acceptable handgun accuracy I know, for an ordinary production pistol, not a bullseye target pistol, is 1-inch per ten-yards. Quality revolvers usually do a bit better. This won't cut it for a target pistol used at 50-yards (5-inches), but the truth is not everyone can see, hold, and squeeze a lot better than that.

One of the best shooters I know is not even particularly interested in group size when the gun is fired from any sort of rest. His only concern is what he can do with the pistol when fired at a target offhand, under competition conditions. His opinion is that there is sometimes an apparent disconnect between potential accuracy indicated by groups fired from a rest and what the same gun and ammunition combination will do as he actually uses the pistol. Given his level of expertise, I am in no position to argue with him.

If you want a 3-inch, 50-yard 1911, even today I don't know anywhere you can get one for $500-$700. If you do get one, you're lucky and good for you, but I think it is the exception, rather than the rule.

It is nice to have a gun/ammunition combo that shoots a lot better than that 3.5-inches/25-yards, but I don't know if you can reasonably expect it for the price of the SA RO. But I agree I would like any modern 1911 .45 to shoot a bit better than 3.5-inches!

I have a bone stock SA GI model in stainless.
your groups look awfully familiar cept I didnt have keyholes.
I also noticed that its accuracy improved a bit.
Function is absolutely flawless first shot to last, which is more than I expect from a newborn bottom feeder.

I love its reliability but like you Im less than thrilled with its accuracy. but being fair I'll finish pounding that 500 rounds down its throat and see if it behaves thereafter.
If not ... its a mil spec 1911 frame ... This makes it the Ford Mustang of pistols. go fast parts grow wild for these guns so there is no reason at all they cant be made to dance a proper tango.
Thus far mine shows no wear at the barrel bushing and it should have signs of lapping in by now. I suspect the factory bushings are a loose fit, this will be where I start after the 500 round marathon.

I have the stainless M1A Loaded and it's a tack driver. The only problem I have with it is with 8 rd mags (Wilson Combat) it sometimes stovepipes the 7th round. It had a very light recoil spring in it (used gun) I replaced it with a 18lb and it is better but not perfect. I took out the extractor and cleaned in there, the ejector looks fine so I don't know???

I took it out today by myself with 50 rounds after work. I had to kneel on the ground and prop up on some crossties for a rest. If anything, it was worse. I'm sending it off later this week.

The more I think about it, the more determined I become NOT to pay the additional $500 to the SA custom shop to have them accurize it.

From my buddy's identical gun, I shot a clip full through a ragged hole (not a single hole, but a big ragged hole about like a pack of cigarettes). Mine should do the same without spending an extra $500. If it shoots when it returns, great; if not, I'll sell it and try again with another .45.

Rawhyde said:

From my buddy's identical gun, I shot a clip full through a ragged hole (not a single hole, but a big ragged hole about like a pack of cigarettes).

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Send them the target and tell them that this is the least you expect, along with the serial number of the identical gun that made the group. For them, this may be as easy as fitting a new barrel, barrel bushing, and checking and replacing the barrel link if necessary. Give them as much incentive as possible to do so.

Let us know what happens. I've had two great wad guns built on box stock Springfield 1911s, but never fired one right out of the box. They sell these as match ready, and dang, they should be! That's what you paid for!!


Bullseye


P.S.: What kind of ammo produced the groups with the keyholes? What other ammo did you fire from this pistol?

FWIW,

I do not shoot the Springfield handgun well. My son in law has two (2) and I find that I am not proficient with the guns.

I don't know what it is but I do not shoot either gun well.

I will stick with my M&P 45 ACP and my Glock 32 and be very happy.