One of the problems with being retired is having way too much time to think up questions that I don't know the answers to. Why is .38 special not a popular caliber for semi-automatics?

The S&W M-52 is a 38sp auto. They use wadcutters seated flush with the case mouth. These were very popular target pistols way back in the 50's and 60's. The Coonan was a semi-auto chambered for the 357 magnum and is still around. The cartridge is long for a semi-auto and there are rounds that will match or better the round.

Rimmed cartridges don't always feed so well in a semi-automatic. They're typically used in a revolver where the rim is used for extraction.

As max said, the S&W Model 52 was chambered for .38 Special flush mount wadcutters, as was the colt MK III.

__________________
"I also cook."

That makes sense. Thanks for the info.

The biggest problem is the "rimmed" case. This makes magazines difficult to make, and feeding problems. The cases don't stack well. Colt also made a 1911 match pistol in 38 Special also, back in the 50's. Very limited and now very expensive.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

When you stack cartriges with the base of a .38 Special, you don't get a straight stack as you do with a cartridge without a lip on the base. The stack is curved because of the lip. My Coonan was an excellent shooter in .357 Magnum. It would also handle .38s with a lighter recoil spring but the clips would only hold a certain amount of ammo and then you got into a banana like situation.

Find a 52 you will be glad that you did!

Seems like the obvious answer has been over looked. It is because we have 9mm semi auto. LOL

__________________
Livin’ Life From The Blindside

I see a few on occasion. One of them things where if your not looking for one, you find one, but if you are looking they are absent. YMMV

Last one I saw for sale was around $1,250.00, a model 52.

__________________
Rather be outdoors

And yet almost every manufacturer seems to make a semi-auto in 22LR, which last I looked was a rimmed ctg.

Rimfire cartridge in rimfire gun.

__________________
I'm with the banned ...

Not insurmountable problems in making one,,just not a very large market for one .

The larger diameter of the rimmed 38spec case makes for smaller magazine capacity in most instances as the few rounds curve quickly as they stack. Not alot of room in a 1911 or M39 frame/mag for the long 38special cartridge with anything much more than the wadcutter bullet.
Though the Bullseye guns are set up for 5rd capacity anyway.

Kind of defeats the purpose of a large frame center fire pistol for most peoples uses.

At one time they tried to re-invent the wheel with the 38AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) round. Simply a rimless 38special in a Colt1911.
Worked well, but ,,They finally just skipped the 38Special use and went to 45acp for all the centerfire course.

Too specialized, too small a market. Like 9MM in a revolver, people say
"Great Idea!"-then they don't sell.

That's one. The other is that S&W .38 Special revolvers are just so magnificent...

.22LR does not double stack. And reliable feeding in straight single stack mags is limited to about 10 rounds or so.

.22LR mags with greater capacity, such as the Ruger BX-25, are very long (due to being one long single stack) and very curvy.

__________________
Where do we go from here?

I like this .38 Super P220

__________________
Corripe Cervisiam

In my opinion the 38 Super is a hard round to beat...Hard to find, I'll admit but if you get one you will love the way it performs especialy compaire to 9mm.....I have spent a long time trying to find a Colt 1911 38Super I could afford, or could justify......Novak makes a good one but with a good high price, I'm sure worth it I just can't justify at my age to buy it.......And wait for it, at 74 I just might not need it and I would sure hate to leave it to family....It would probably be sold for a lot less than I paid for it......Kids!!!

Now how did we get from .38 Special to .38 Super?

I have a Giles .38 Special M1911. They're supposed to be less finicky than Smith 52s. I've had very few problems with mine.

The Giles is on top, my Series 70 .45 below.

Attached Images

Colts.jpg (55.9 KB, 79 views)

I was wondering the same thing.
Now somebody needs to address the supposed need for a revolver in .38 super or something stupid like that.

That was good shooting on that target above. In the old pistol matches when I shot with 5th Army it was a s&w model 41 for 22, model 52 for centerfire and Colt for 45 ACP. My gosh on one day I shot 10 rounds you could cover with a half dollar at 50 yards!! They were all amazed, I told them the secret of my accuracy"Did anyone notice how foggy it was when we started? I centered on the target and worked on sight alignment and squeezed them off, could not see the target to tell if I was doing any good!"

I guess ya then need a banana clip!

Whoever says that rimmed cartridges don't work well in semi or full autos oughtta tell the Russians as they and their former Com-Bloc partners have been using the rimmed 7.62x54R in all manners of semi-auto rifles and machine guns forever.

My guess is it had to do with the low power and long case as much as any other factor , including the rim. Probably why the semi-rimmed .38 ACP/Colt Auto and later .38 Super came to be.

Machineguns are usually relatively tolerant of rimmed cartridges like 7.62x54Rmm, .303 British and 8mm Mannlicher because they generally don't use box magazines. Belt fed machineguns work reasonably well with rimmed cartridges, albeit not being conducive to "push through" feeding mechanisms and their belts. Pan magazines usually work alright as well, in the case of the Lewis, Vickers "K", and DP/DT. Box feeding of rimmed cartridges is usually less successful, although the Bren worked well.

The ONLY successful semi-auto 7.62x54Rmm rifle has been the SVD and it's developments and copies. It's not a general issue infantry weapon like the Garand or Kalashnikov. The Tokarev and Simonov were NOT very successful and ended up in a VERY secondary role, largely in the hands of Soviet Naval Infantry and as parade and drill rifles.

My brother was a partner in a gun store in the late 1970's, and they had a Model 52 in stock, which wasn't moving. We decided to make it a demo gun.

It would only feed Winchester 148gr WC's. Remington's, Federal, and even S&W-branded ammo would jam constantly.

We eventually permanently set up some RCBS dies, and scrupulously trimmed cases to insure no feed problems. Too much trouble for too little enjoyment.

That's why I'm a fan of the .38 Super.

If you dig out enough "meat" from inside of your S&W Model 39 grip frame you can use a Model 52 magazine and shoot .38 Specials.

Mark

The .38 Special in a semi-auto is meant almost exclusively for bullseye 2700 matches. Virtually everybody serious about bullseye reloads. Of course around here, you probably can't find factory .38 Special wadcutter loads in a store anyway. I certainly don't know anybody who carries them.

As far as "enjoyment" goes, I won my class in the centerfire match in some 2700s where I NEVER would have if I'd used a .45 instead. That makes me happy.

What I was thinking, and .380. Both pretty much the same caliber.

I have wondered why they don't have more magnum type rounds for semi autos.

__________________
Beware the man with one gun.

The original question was "Why no .38 Special Semi-Automatics?".

.38 Super is one of the answers.

__________________
Corripe Cervisiam

When I knew they had such a thing I said., ".38 special in an semi.... COOL! Then I thought that I would be better off with a cartridge that was made to be semi auto so I said, "Naaaah."

I know this is the Smith site, but Colt offered a wadcutter Based on the 1911 in the 70 series. Gawdawful accurate!

FWIW...my 52 is the most accurate pistol that i've ever shot...EVER.

She takes my breath away every time.

i've never fired factory ammo with her. just custom reloads.

__________________
Death? Smile back...

Go ahead and get it, who cares how much they sell it for. Maybe just maybe whoever ends up with it really will appreciate it and got a good deal on it, wouldn't that make you happy?

I used to shoot a friend's Colt Gold Cup National Match .38 Spl. It may be the most accurate pistol I've ever fired.

There are a few high dollar semi auto match pistols in .32 S&W Long. They are used for ISSF Centerfire matches. The Pardini HP is an example. The .32 has the advantage of being a very light load and it works in a straight blow-back action. I have a Pardini SP in .22 and it is a fine gun. There were also some pistols that allowed you to change out the top section and convert from .22 LR to .32 S&W Long and even to .22 short for ISSF Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire is now shot with .22 LR so there are a lot of orphan .22 short guns out there. Walther and Hammerli are examples of convertible guns. The Model 52 is considered an unforgiving gun when it comes to bullseye shooters. Most bullseye shooters just use their .45 for both centerfire and .45. They may have a special load for the long line as opposed to the 25 yard line. Most use a good quality.22 and a custom .45 with a red dot sight on both. The Ultra Dot is popular and a real bargain, I have them on several guns including a Pardini GT .45, and A Custom Clark wad cutter .45. Mine are frame mounted, but it is common to slide mount them on a .45 for bullseye - one less thing to go out of alignment. I wish there was a domestic .32 option like a nice S&W Model 16 (K32) or a Ruger MKII in .32. I have seen pictures of a one-off Ruger MKI in .32. It must have been a real job to do the conversion. I would settle for finding a Model 16 Cylinder so I could make a custom gun from a K38 (Model 14) which are still pretty easy to find (at least in my gun safe)

Best, Dwight

Sorry to carry on about the .32..

__________________
Veritas et Humanitas

Around here, they're somewhat popular for the centerfire match in 2700s.

Around ten years ago, there was talk about Marvel coming out with a .32S&W Long conversion kit for the M1911, similar to their .22lr kit. Apparently nothing ever came of it.

In the days of 2700, three gun matches, the SW52 along with Giles 1911, 45,and 38sp were very popular......If you were a Police shooter you were at a disadvantage as soon as you creeped into Master class....The ,competician was brutal to say the least....In the 60's you ended up shooting against the military shooters, and the very best civilian and police shooters....Most shoot a lot of ammo every year, The difference between a Gold Cup 45 and a Giles was almost unsurmountable. Also the average police shooter was lucky if you got enough time and ammo to stay proficient. In those days Detroit PD had a first class team (Yep I said Detroit) The Army marksmenship unit had a group of Master class shooters. The Marines had their Camp Perry group that also shot the 2700 matches, along with hardball. Point being, equipment and time on the range was the big seperator. This was especilly true in the Master Class. Some of those guys were so good it was unbelievable. Moving from expert class to a just made master class was a step to far in my case......My uncle and cousin both St.L pd shooter's had both won at Camp Perry. They were bullseye specialist in the 60's. Uncle Paul held the timed fire 45 record for years, and Paul Jr. was the Golden Archer winner one year.....Paul senior was the Chief instructor of the St.L PD academy, Paul Jr. was just a chip off of the block, and had been shooting bullseve from age 14 till he went on the ST,L PD It wasn't long after most PD's went to combat style shooting and the 2700 agg. shooter became few and far between in Police Departments.....Probably a step in the right direction. I still get a kick out of seeing the old pictures of the FBI academy shooters shooting 38sp revolvers on the range with their left hand in their pocket and using the extended one hand grip on the range....We have came a long way....Problem being my age is you remember the things that you liked even 50 years ago, and can't remember what the heck you went to the store for, that is if you could find your car keys.....Sorry for the memories.....

There were some model 52 pistols that were chambered for the .38 AMU cartridge. This was a rimless .38 special with a HBWC. I imagine these guns are pretty rare.

__________________
Veritas et Humanitas