diamonback68
US Veteran
When something is advertised as .38 centerfire can someone tell me what that is? Is it the same as .38 S&W?
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.38 Centerfire question?
- Thread starter diamonback68
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Double-O-Dave
US Veteran
Diamondback68:
I'm no expert, so I'd have to get clarification. To me, ".38 Centerfire" could mean .38S&W, .38Super, .380ACP, or .38Special. I think you could legitimately make the argument to include the .357Magnum, as it is of course, .38 caliber, but with a longer case.
To avoid any misunderstanding, or to prevent any accidents or mishaps, I'd get clarification - what is stamped on the barrel?
Regards,
Dave
I'm no expert, so I'd have to get clarification. To me, ".38 Centerfire" could mean .38S&W, .38Super, .380ACP, or .38Special. I think you could legitimately make the argument to include the .357Magnum, as it is of course, .38 caliber, but with a longer case.
To avoid any misunderstanding, or to prevent any accidents or mishaps, I'd get clarification - what is stamped on the barrel?
Regards,
Dave
OP
diamonback68
US Veteran
This is what the book says about the Hopkins and Allen XL Double Action. My son just bought one and was asking about the caliber since .38 Special doesn't fit. Thanks.
Wyatt Burp
Member
The closest thing I can think of is .38 Long Colt, which is shorter than a .38 Special (but the same otherwise) and was around in the 1870's when .38 rimfire cartridges were used also, hence the center fire specification. Or maybe not. BTW, the .38 Long Colt was made two ways. First an outside lubed one I think, then inside lubed with a tighter bore like .38 Special. If a .38 Spl. seems to fit but just doesn't go in far enough, that might be it.
Alpo
Member
Could be either 38 S&W or 38 Colt. But if it's old enough to be marked "38 Centerfire" (to differentiate it from 38 Rimfire), it is probably going to be black powder, and shooting modern ammo in it will be dangerous.
rockyrider
Member
Centerfire
I agree with Alpo, Centerfire refers to the primer used in the center of the cartridge, as opposed to a rim fire cartridge. I am not trained enough to know what cartridges could be used.
I agree with Alpo, Centerfire refers to the primer used in the center of the cartridge, as opposed to a rim fire cartridge. I am not trained enough to know what cartridges could be used.
jlrhiner
US Veteran
DO NOT SHOOT MODERN AMMUNITION IN YOUR .38 CENTERFIRE!!!!
As was noted above, it IS a black powder cartridge. .38 CENTERFIRE was used to denote it from the .38 rimfire. I'm unable yet to go downstairs to my books but I also believe this was called the .38/40. One of the "old guys" will be along to either confirm this or correct it.
As was noted above, it IS a black powder cartridge. .38 CENTERFIRE was used to denote it from the .38 rimfire. I'm unable yet to go downstairs to my books but I also believe this was called the .38/40. One of the "old guys" will be along to either confirm this or correct it.
Most old break open 38's were made for the 38 S&W cartridge. It was a black powder round then. Later was loaded with smokeless.Also called the 38 Short Colt.Not the same as a 38 Spec. or a 38-40.
LittleCooner
Member
After spending a few minutes with google on your OP, I do not think I want to be around if you decide to shoot this thing. Sounds like a black power case for a Saturday night special made well over a hundred + years ago. Looks like show and tell only, not something to take to the range.
OP
diamonback68
US Veteran
Thanks guys, I think that settles it.
I was given a Hopkins & Allen top break .32 S&W a long time ago. Their hammer rotated on an eccentric so that its top struck at a lower position than it sat in at rest. At rest the hammer was blocked from rotating as far forward as the firing pin by the frame above the firing pin. That was to compete against Iver Johnson’s patented transfer bar which was widely advertised in their “hammer the hammer” ads. Most Hopkins & Allen top breads were either .32 S&W or .38 S&W.
Mine was made after the turn of the century. There were earlier Hopkins & Allen designs. .38 S&W dates back to the 1870s so a S&W competitor who did not want to stamp S&W on their products may have stuck with an out dated description of the cartridge. This is speculative, but I’d bet a nickel your son bought a .38 S&W.
I suggest asking your son to measure how far out of the chamber the rear of a .38 special protrudes. There’s a big difference in length between .38 S&W and .38 long colt. More importantly get him to post pictures of the revolver.
Incidently the Hopkins & Allen I was given spit lead baddly. I sold it to a pawn shop/gun store for $25 in the late '70s or early '80s.
Mine was made after the turn of the century. There were earlier Hopkins & Allen designs. .38 S&W dates back to the 1870s so a S&W competitor who did not want to stamp S&W on their products may have stuck with an out dated description of the cartridge. This is speculative, but I’d bet a nickel your son bought a .38 S&W.
I suggest asking your son to measure how far out of the chamber the rear of a .38 special protrudes. There’s a big difference in length between .38 S&W and .38 long colt. More importantly get him to post pictures of the revolver.
Incidently the Hopkins & Allen I was given spit lead baddly. I sold it to a pawn shop/gun store for $25 in the late '70s or early '80s.
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nicky4968
Member
jlrhiner is correct. If it marked .38 Centerfire, it probably is .38 WCF, which is also the .38-40.
I have seen S&W topbreaks in this caliber, but I don't recall what model number.
I have seen S&W topbreaks in this caliber, but I don't recall what model number.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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IIRC 38 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) is the correct designation for 38-40. The vast majority of those old pocket revolvers-Hopkins and Allen, Iver Johnson, H&R, etc. were chambered for 38 S&W.
Doen't fit as in won't go in all the way or darn near falls through the cylinder? It becomes quite a bit more interesting if it is a .38-40 WCF even if it is a wall hanger.
OP
diamonback68
US Veteran
Will not go in all the way in and if held beside the cylinder it's longer than it.
mjr
Member
I believe that eliminates the .38 WCF.
Does "the book" you mentioned give a date or dates of manufacture?
Edit: A little google-fu suggests that 1) the revolver was manufactured between 1888 and 1898, and 2) it is chambered for the blackpowder version of the .38 S&W round.
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.38 short Colt, .38 long Colt and .38 Spec. are the same dia. The difference is in the length. .38 S&W is a larger dia. If a .38 S&W will chamber that is it. If a .38 Spec. will not go all the way in it is a .38 short or long Colt. Larry
Alpo
Member
Not necessarily, tops. If you stick a 38 Special into a 38 S&W chamber, it "will not go all the way in". But a 38 S&W is not a 38 short or long Colt.
38/40 is a rifle cartridge. H&A is/was a cheap gun, and they never made a pistol strong enough for Winchester rifle rounds.
The very best way to determine the caliber is to attempt to stick a 38 S&W into one of the chambers. If it goes it, that's what it is, because it is larger in diameter than the Colt rounds. If it won't go in, that makes it 38 Colt.
38/40 is a rifle cartridge. H&A is/was a cheap gun, and they never made a pistol strong enough for Winchester rifle rounds.
The very best way to determine the caliber is to attempt to stick a 38 S&W into one of the chambers. If it goes it, that's what it is, because it is larger in diameter than the Colt rounds. If it won't go in, that makes it 38 Colt.
Nit picking the details of tops' post.
That would be good theory if it weren't for tolerances. Especially in inexpensive brands many .38 spl/.357s will chamber .38 S&W. That can be the case even if both the .38 spl chamber and .38 S&W ctg are within SAAMI specifications. Maximum SAAMI specification for a .38 spl chamber 0.2" forward of the breach face (recoil shield) is 0.3849". Minimum .38 S&W ctg dia. at that point is 0.3803", 0.0046 smaller.
Edit to add: Although I hadn't seen it I also nit-picked Alpo's last paragraph.
At one time while creating the least noisy light loads for back yard garden pests I used .38 S&W brass in order to better seal a Rossi .357 rifle's breach. .38 S&W cases noticeably reduced the noise.
That would be good theory if it weren't for tolerances. Especially in inexpensive brands many .38 spl/.357s will chamber .38 S&W. That can be the case even if both the .38 spl chamber and .38 S&W ctg are within SAAMI specifications. Maximum SAAMI specification for a .38 spl chamber 0.2" forward of the breach face (recoil shield) is 0.3849". Minimum .38 S&W ctg dia. at that point is 0.3803", 0.0046 smaller.
Edit to add: Although I hadn't seen it I also nit-picked Alpo's last paragraph.
At one time while creating the least noisy light loads for back yard garden pests I used .38 S&W brass in order to better seal a Rossi .357 rifle's breach. .38 S&W cases noticeably reduced the noise.
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Reread my post. I stated to try a .38 S&W to see if it would chamber and if it would that was it. I also stated that the the .38 S&W is a larger dia. than the .38 Colt and Spec. cartridges. Larry
