Rat Baits

Beagleye's thread about rat hunting got me thinking about the new EPA rules over the sales of rat bait (poison).

For the last 15 years I've been placing the second generation anticoagulant poison Bromadiolone, bait blocks when I noticed signs of rats around my home. My past experiences were that a pound would vanish over a week, the rats would vanish and a second pound of rat bait would rot in their stations until I'd declare the infestation over and pitch the old bait.

Last Fall was the first time in a couple years that I needed to use rodenticides. I found that new rules for second generation anticoagulants had taken effect, and that I would have to buy them in eight pound or greater quantities. In all honesty I've probably used 16 pounds of Bromadiolone over the last 16 years.

What I have found is that small quantities of the central nervous system toxin Bromethalin are available under the new EPA rules. I've shied away from using the CNS toxin because there is no antidote, where anticoagulants are treatable with Vitamin K-1 in case a non-target consumes it.

I question the logic of the new rules. I also understand the highly toxic effects of both chemical baits. I only use them in secure areas. What I would like comments on is how effective Bromethalin is?

I'm down to my last pound of Just One Bite brand Brimadiolone bait, and just found out I can get TomCat brand Bromethalin bait at a discount through my homeowner's association.

I'm sure this group is quite knowledgeable on other ways to kill rats besides shooting them. Bring your thoughts on.

kwselke said:

...got me thinking about the new EPA rules...

I question the logic of the new rules.

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There. I summed it all up for ya....

Hack said:

There. I summed it all up for ya....

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That does not tell me if Bromethalin is effective, or if I should just buy Bromadiolone in large quantities and share with my neighbors. The rule changes predate the current administration, so do not bring politics to the discussion. I understand the secondary poisoning effect of second generation anticoagulants, but in the middle of Houston there are few Barn Owls, Condors, Buzzards, or other birds of prey to worry about. I do see an occasional hawk, but folks talk about finding dead rats by the stink not because a hawk was eating one.

If I may make a suggestion one of the best things I know of for killing off rats and mice is Coca Cola and it is perfectly safe if you have pets etc. around. Rodents can't belch and the Coke puts the hurt on 'em every
time. Just pour some in one of those chicken pot pie containers. Be sure to keep it fresh and change it out every day till you are rid of those suckers. Hope this helps.

POPPER said:

If I may make a suggestion one of the best things I know of for killing off rats and mice is Coca Cola and it is perfectly safe if you have pets etc. around. Rodents can't belch and the Coke puts the hurt on 'em every
time. Just pour some in one of those chicken pot pie containers. Be sure to keep it fresh and change it out every day till you are rid of those suckers. Hope this helps.

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Is Coca Cola labeled for that use by the EPA? I'm not going to invite the rats over for a caffeine fix and expect that to be an effective solution. Once you get a rat infestation such solutions are seen for their worth. So in your experience, how does the Coke treatment compare to Bromethalin?

I've treated my share of "warfarin" toxicities

And they are attractive to non target animals. Let's face it, puppies eat anything. As you mentioned the new EPA regulations are questionable at best. The neurotoxin stuff has, in my limited experience, with mice, been a total waste of time and money. There is also a "super vitamin D" bait that causes renal failure. I have no experience with it. The "born-again" mouse traps that allow a live catch are also a joke. Glue traps have been most effective for me and only the real flat ones. They want you to fold them up and that cuts down on the trapping area by 2/3rds. I also do not throw them away with a mouse in them. I use a pair of hemostats applied to their necks , which is quick and humane, IMNSHO, and then pull them off the glue with steady "gentle" force. I replace the trap, which is now "baited" with 100% natural mouse body scent and urine as well as a few miniature tootsie rolls to attract the next one. After four or five, I will replace the trap.

BTW, the people who wrote the EPA regs now work programming the Affordable health care web site

kwselke said:

That does not tell me if Bromethalin is effective, or if I should just buy Bromadiolone in large quantities and share with my neighbors. The rule changes predate the current administration, so do not bring politics to the discussion. I understand the secondary poisoning effect of second generation anticoagulants, but in the middle of Houston there are few Barn Owls, Condors, Buzzards, or other birds of prey to worry about. I do see an occasional hawk, but folks talk about finding dead rats by the stink not because a hawk was eating one.

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As a specific response to your question, I would continue to use the anticoagulant. I also would not worry about the "shelf life". So what if it has lost half it's potency...(Which is VERY unlikely under normal storage conditions). They will be back and eat more. I see an expiration date on sodium chloride 0.9% injectable. DUH what can go wrong with table salt. Potency and efficacy are two terms that the FDA sometimes needs to rethink. And the EPA is in the same barn.
As an aside, the "wax baits" were the best accepted but my experience has been with mice.

Don't know anything about those chemical baits as I don't like them. Rats/mice eat this stuff and then crawl under the house and die. And it stinks. I like having control over where they die and dispose of them myself.

Rats traps and peanut butter have always worked for me.

I don't know for sure if it works on rats but one of the best mouse killers that is safe around everything but the mouse is potato buds and water. You put a tuna fish can full of potato buds down and a tuna fish can full of water. The mouse comes along and starts eating the potato buds and about the time they really start getting good to him he's already eaten too many. Of course whats your mouse going to want after he has eaten his greedy self full of potato buds a nice long drink of water, he'll go over to the can full of water and gulp down a couple of swallows and the tater buds will begin to swell enough to kill him, burst like a hot sausage...your cat will love you, stuffed mouse. Haven't tried it on a rat, last rat I caught was a pack rat...didn't think we had them this far North.

mwtdvm said:

As a specific response to your question, I would continue to use the anticoagulant. I also would not worry about the "shelf life". So what if it has lost half it's potency...(Which is VERY unlikely under normal storage conditions). They will be back and eat more. I see an expiration date on sodium chloride 0.9% injectable. DUH what can go wrong with table salt. Potency and efficacy are two terms that the FDA sometimes needs to rethink. And the EPA is in the same barn.
As an aside, the "wax baits" were the best accepted but my experience has been with mice.

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It's my understanding that the bait becomes stale and less attractive to rats after 2 to 3 years. In the past I would buy 4 pounds at a time, use two pounds to solve the current infestation and save two pounds for a future invasion. My issues are with Norway (Brown) Rats.

Keep in mind if you have animals and leave food out for them then the vitamin K in the dog/cat food will offset the poison for the rodents. Vitamin k is the antidote for the effective ingredient used in the baits. Also any water sources left out should be picked up as well

Sorry but you are not correct ...

Texas40 said:

Keep in mind if you have animals and leave food out for them then the vitamin K in the dog/cat food will offset the poison for the rodents. Vitamin k is the antidote for the effective ingredient used in the baits./QUOTE]

The Warfarin family of anticoagulants block the metabolism of vitamin K to the coagulation co-factors II,VII, IX and X. Treatment is to give such massive amounts of Vitamin K that the competitive reaction shifts back toward "normal" side. Yes, there is vitamin K in dog and cat food but the amount is for a normal supplement, not a therapeutic amount. The time that these large amounts of Vitamin K must be given varies with the 1. particular form of "warfarin" and 2. The amount ingested.

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In response to the inquiry about how the coke works, years ago I had rats literally take over my well house where my water pump was. You could flip the light on at night and they'd be running the walls. Well house also had a wood floor up off the ground. This was back in the 60s out in the country when my neighbor up in years as I am now clued me in about the Coke. Worked like a dream but it stunk up there for a few days from the dead rat carcasses but it was well worth it. Like I said before to my knowledge rodents can not belch and fresh Coke puts gas into their system that they can't expell and it kills them. I had a couple bird dogs and cow herding dogs at the time and I didn't want to risk using chemicals around them. If you want to use poisons that's your call. Nuff said!

We had a abandoned farm nearby. I was in the firewood business and had 100 cords of seasoned firewood stacked. Soon after the rats from the old farm moved into my wood. I tried using Decon first. I hid the boxes in the wood pile. My neighbor asked why we had a couple of dead birds. I put the decon idea to rest and got 5cats. It was cheaper and no other animals were killed in the process.

At the new place we had a rodent problem outside. Again my cats went to work. I ever raised three wild feral kittens. There full grown now and regular cats when there inside but as soon as they step outside there wild tigers. They kill mice, moles, crows in my corn, squirrels, snakes, etc. My new place is free from rodents and what ever comes on my land. It's the law of the jungle here.

To keep the cats safe from the counties I let there claws grow long so they can run up trees when danger is near.

Right now I took in two more kittens there in laser training right now. One is so fast I seen him SWAT Flys with one shot. They are going to be awesome mousers.

Guess I'll never have to worry about rats.I take 10 mg of warfarin a day to keep me thin and no clots.After one through the heart two years ago I'll take the rat poison.