I can't believe its the year 2014 and car dealerships are just as dorkey and insulting as they were 50 years ago. I have heavily researched and test driven several cars and have decided to purchase a used 2013 Ford Escape SE, and my budget is $18,000. I know that is a low price but if it has a lot of miles that's ok because I drive about 25k /year and I have found about a dozen vehicles available on Autotrader and Lemon free in other states that meet my criteria but have not found any locally that cheap. So I got on the internet and listed my requirements and several dealers have contacted me. They don't have the car I want at the price I want but want to set up a meeting. I said what is point if you don't have what I want? Then they say well come on down and maybe we can find one you like. I said I just told you what I like and what I want, see if you can find one then call me and I will come over and very likely buy it. Well, what other vehicles are you interested in? If I was interested in other vehicles I would have stated that to you in my original request, I'm not trying to keep secrets from you. Then he says what are you trading in and I tell him I will be paying with cash and says can you meet on Saturday morning and I say yes I can if you have the vehicle I requested. He says I'm sure we can find what you are wanting, and I said well find it, get on the lot, then call me so I will be sure. Yadda yadda yadda I went through the same thing with three different salesmen and the phone keeps ringing. Is there an easier or less painful way to buy off the internet and get a no haggle price?

No.

It is a screwed up system, a throwback to an earlier era where the middleman imparted value. Now they're just a PITA.

Gotta go buy the wife a new car next week. Same deal - I know what I want, I have cash to buy it with, yet I'll probably get the same BS when I go there to transact. I hope Tesla Motors litigates, wins, and puts an end to this dealer franchise ****!!

Get to know a local independent dealer. One you feel you can have some trust in. (I know that may be a chore). Stick with him so he knows you are a repeat customer, and he will make you much better deals.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Buying a used car, I am afraid not. Buying a New car there are ways to make it easier but still a pain.

Best advice is do not settle on one car have 2 or 3 that you can live with. That gives you losts more choices and chances to say "see ya!"

Places like Costco have car buying service. They negotiate best deal so it's hassle free.

I buy new cars and walk in with my Consumer Reports and Edmunds Printouts on dealer cost. Make an appointment and tell them I have this and I will not go through any BS.

I will show them what they paid for the car and ask them to tell me what is their best price. No I do not expect it for cost but they can sell for several hundred dollars over. I tell them up front, I have done this too many times and will walk out so not "ask the manager, let me have your keys, are you trading (always so no) even if you are.

Last 4 cars we bought from the same dealer so last time was a record maybe 1 hour in and out with a new car.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Quote: Why is buying a car so painful? Unquote

Because the industry is still run by horse thieves!!!

They just will NOT put a price tag on an automobile and let that be it.

What they are really saying is for you to go there so they can work you over until you leave with a car whether it is what you could could afford or not, or whether you wanted that car or not.

I couldn't come that close to buying a new car without just buying a new car.(and for the new car that I just bought,I had a general idea of a good price,probably not a squeeze it until it bleeds price,but I didn't care.I did care that it was going to be from my local dealer.The salesman gave me his price,which jived with my notion of where he might start,I countered with my number,and it was all settled in a minute.On to the next thing.
I believe that when you look for a used car at the low end of the price range for that vehicle,one will present.Whether it a car that you want,is another matter.It may have the miles,be a wreck,but someone will fulfill the deal.

Old saying in the car business, "There's a fanny for every seat." They know they hold all the cards. Your only play is to walk out. And when you do, someone else is walking in.

Does the acronym BOHICA suggest anything to you?

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Oh well, what the hell.

The TV show, The UNIT, used it quite often!

You can get better deals buying used. With new cars there is always the msrp and dealers don't go far off that. Used cars can be any price. Just cause it's $18k doesn't mean it can't be 14 or 12. They can mark up a million % and you can negotiate that much. That used Escape they could have bought at auction for $12

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Is a new Ford Escape much more than 18 grand?

Been trying to buy a 2014 Nissan Rogue. Now have a Xterra and feel the need to go smaller.
Been getting the same old treatment as talked about above. The car dealers spend- borrow millions of dollars then hand it over to idiots.
Carmax has a professional business way of operating if they have or can get what you want. They tend to really low ball you on trades.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I always have bought used.

The last two we're driving now.

First is my '04 GMC. I bought it from Carmax after finding it on the net. It's in great shape and still hasn't hit 60k. Nice little truck.

It was located in Orlando and I paid the shipping to see it here. I knew it was sweet and they take the fee off of the price if you buy. The gamble cost me $150. I payed a bit more for the truck but payed the finance off early. I'm happy and drive a nice truck.

Our next purchase, My wife always wanted a Jeep. We started shopping around. Looked a a bunch. We found one a a Mazda dealership that was supposed to be nice. They said to come on up and see it. It was cool. Then I drove it. Holy cow! You couldn't keep it in a straight line! Needless to say it had been hit and hit hard. I pointed it out and told him "We'll pass".

The salesman then said "I have another one. Newer. Give it a try."

I'm thinking "this is gonna cost me".

We drove that '07 and it was perfect for my wife.

I told him it was to much and walked. He called me back before I got a half a mile away and took my offer.

She thinks she's cool and for her I feel its safer. (Yes it has a standard and she drives it well.) It cost more than we wanted but she's happy and I payed it off early.

I guess that's two totally different ways to buy. Just do your homework and you can get what you want.

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Dum vivo cano

I know the feeling. It’s painful because you're about to hand over a substantial amount of money and it feels like you’re dealing with a guy in a back alley in the middle of the night.

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A gun has no brain.. use yours

Its so painful because the car dealers like it that way. They seem to have discovered that putting you through as much pain as they can results in more profit for them. They're playing a game they've studied and practiced. And they're playing it against you, a novice at it. The only real card you have to play is walking out. I've read a few articleds that suggest if you don't walk out of 2 or 3 dealerships, you're not doing a very good job of negotiations. A while back we were in my trade in, starting the motor when a guy I'd never seen before came running out the door. He was the manager, the one who wouldn't honor the deal we made over the internet and then confirmed over the phone. He asked me where I was going and I told him "home". He then relented and agreed to the deal we'd made. It was Eastgate Jeep in Indy. Yes, I'd driven over 100 miles and was ready to drive home. No, I'd never deal with them again.

They had no honor and weren't worthy of my time. But the manager then kind of honored the deal. What their "holdback" was is they said the parts dept. was closed for the day, and they couldn't get me the soft top parts. Sounded reasonable. But then after a couple of months (winter) they hadn't bothered to ship the parts to me. Oh, and at that time they had a deal for a free gas card. They didn't bother to turn that in, either. So I spend hours and hours calling Chrysler trying to get to someone who would fix the deal. Finally I got some movement by asking who in Indiana I needed to call to get consumer protection involved. You can't get that from the dealer or the manufacturer. But as soon as I started screaming and demanding and a call to the Attorney Generals office things started to change. Soon I got the brown truck at my door with my parts. But a sorry charlie, still no prepaid debit card for fuel. But that turned out to be easy. Everyone agreed I'd bought the car during the promotional period and the fault was with the dealer, not me. So my point of view prevailed and within a couple of weeks the mail man delivered the envelope.

It seems cheating customers is profitable, too. No reason not to attempt it. If the dealer loses, all he needs to pay is the amount he'd pay if he was an honest business man. If you give up, its all profit to him.

I'm just amazed someone doesn't walk into a dealership and shoot the salesmen who pull this stuff.

Someone mentioned your keys. Its just a crooked stunt to make you off balance. A Toyota dealer pulled that on us in 1998. We'd actually forgot he still had our keys and walked out. I was a jerk (according to my wife). I came back inside yelling. Not calm at all, but yelling they were a crooked dealer to keep my keys. And every customer in the place was looking. So I explained at a very loud voice what they'd done. And to attempt to calm me down no one knew a thing, and they didn't have m keys! Cool. I wanted to call the police, right then.

The salesman who had taken my keys just asked what that would prove, so I said I'd get him arrested for theft, and lets do it and see. Then the sales manager suddenly came up with my keys. He was a real jerk. So I walked over to him and reached for my keys. He did the unbelievable and jerked them away with a smirk. Guess he'd had some experience with motions others made. He then handed me the keys. And asked me what I'd have done had he not. So I was honest, as always. No, I wasn't going to punch him as he assumed. I was going to kick a field goal. And it looked to me he wasn't protecting those parts of his body.

I have no idea who that would turn out in court. But it was awful close to playing out that way. The only advantage I had was the complete attention of about a dozen customer/witness' to tell what had happened. You can lie if the only folks watching are your underlings. When there are others around, lies don't float in a courtroom.

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Dick Burg

must be a Toyota dealer trademark. I had the local one try that some years ago. they tried the "I can't find your keys" trick and I immediately got out my phone and started dialing the police. was asked who I was calling and said the police. the keys turned up before I finished dialing. I then told the salesman and sales manager what I thought of their tactics, dealership and parentage, in voice loud enough for everyone in earshot to hear. never entered the place again.

For used cars, I like the Carmax way. Here's what we have at what we feel is a fair price. Take it or leave it. Carmax does go low on trade though. I declined their trade offer and sold my vehicle via Craigslist in less than two hours for a $1,000.00 more than Carmax offered.

Car dealers are like real estate agents; they used to protect and help consumers but now only transfer money from the consumer to the middleman driving costs up for everyone.

Tesla is trying to change the way we buy cars, and they are getting substantial pushback from the dealer PAC's.

Bull, you hold all the cards. They want you to think they hold all the cards. The truth is, you have the money so, you have the power. That doesn't mean you can ask for whatever you want, but you can walk at any time and I guarantee there is another care somewhere else.


It's not hard Farmer17, you just have to stand firm. I too like the way Carmax does it. You can actually call the local Carmax and tell them what you want. They will send you an email when one shows up on their lot. See, simple.

Here's exactly the car you mentioned in the OP: 2013 Ford Escape SE in Bakersfield, CA- 10324677 at carmax.com

That one is in Bakersfield, but it showed up only because I searched for it from here. If you want it, they will ship it to OK, but it'll cost about $500 for that. Just search on the Carmax website using your own zip code. I'm sure they can get you the car you want without hassle.

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Freedom isn't free.

When my son got out of the Navy in 1990 he was dating the wonderful Philadelphia girl he finally wised up and married, so he settled in Philly. His first job was selling cars, mostly used ones.

He went on to make a good living in sales, but not selling cars. He bailed out of that gig pretty quickly. He told me, "I just couldn't treat people that way and live with myself."

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Oh well, what the hell.

I bought my last two vehicles thru Costco. The price is negotiated beforehand and you buy from the fleet representatives who are NOT on commission. The only thing you have to negotiate is the value of your trade in and they were fair. The last vehicle I bought took 15 minute start to finish.
I will NEVER subject myself to a dealers sales staff ever again.
Jim

I have purchased my last 4 cars from owners and not dealers. Every one has been great, way below dealer prices and after 3 years of driving them, I've been able to sell them for what I paid for them or, in one case, a few hundred more. I haven't been to a dealer for 20 years and probably never will.

I always pay cash and never finance a depreciating asset.

Come to Vegas. A few years back somebody did just as you suggest.

We don't think much of incompetent doctors, either. The most recent one to be killed missed a deluxe set of uterine fibroids on my wife in 2001, so maybe the killer actually made medicine a bit safer here.

Well my new car money has gone into more Smiths. I figured the old car, and me, have a few good years left. And let me tell you it has been fun! I have been on a fearless tear for the last six or seven months. And during that time the value of my Mercury has gone down about $150.00. At the same time my "safe-deposits" has keep pace with the stock market. Heck, they beat the stock market hands down.

Last three years I put less than five thousand on the car bringing it up to 41k. This year I have been heading to the range two or three times a week. That should get me to 6k.

To the subject at hand, buying a new car. I imitate my father at those times. I sat through his technique at least three times. For a kid that was stressful. That is a manly duty to protect the family's meager assets by acquiring a new vehicle w/o getting raped in the process. That came when and if the dealer serviced the car. There may be a special place in hell for some mangers of service departments. Do you know what I mean, have they gotten to you a few times?

I wish I could bring those skills to the lgs. I'd save some money for sure. Just yesterday my excitement got the better of me when I brought my first WWII era gun. Shouda held my cards much longer. Oh well. The thrill of thr purchase, though tempered by a weak will, was still there. Until buyer's remorse set in. Oh well. Then again I scored a Colt King Cobra!

On the positive side I have saved a few car salesmen some hard wheeling and dealing. Saved their wives and dogs too.

Used car buying is an art.

New car buying is a relatively simple task. Once you've decided on the specific make, model and trim, do your homework on Edmunds or similar website to learn what folks are paying and what times (like end of month/quarter) are generally favorable to making a deal. Check with dealers in area via Internet or phone. In my case, I found the local Chattanooga dealer not wanting to meet the lowest price quoted at another dealer so I ended up driving to Toyota Canton, GA. The purchase was simple. I Inspected vehicle inside and out, filled out paperwork, wrote check, drove home.

Now if you wander into a car dealer shopping for a vehicle to decide which one you might like and then make a purchase on the spot... expect to pay more than you might have otherwise and get frustrated trying to negotiate with people who are better at it than you.

While presented by Rastoff with the best of intentions, the vehicle he linked to appears to have been used as a rental. About 10 yrs. ago I bought a used chevy product from a Chevy dealer. The car was a year old and had 7,000 miles on it. It was nothing but trouble and turned out to be a used rental. Dealers are hard up for decent looking used cars and often buy cars from rental agency's. My son has worked for a body and fender shop for 20 years. They repair only vehicles from major rental agencies. He can get real deals on used rentals but tells me he'd never buy one. If I had 18K to spend on a vehicle, I'd look for a new one that fits that perimeter, even if I had to re evaluate my preferences. Some of the new ones have 100K warranties which I would want considering all the expensive electronic junk on vehicles today.

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SOS USA

Take a close look at some of those 100k mile warranties. Quite often they cover only major engine components and drivetrain, not electronics. So yeah, your engine crank shaft is covered which is about as likely to fail as you winning the lottery, but those little black boxes may not be.

I own a 4x4 but also have a little Toyota. I had 140,000 miles on the Toyota. I wanted to buy a new one. I drive into the Toyota dealer in New Jersey and when talking to the sale guy -he was laughing at my car. That piss me off. I walked out.

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Last week a lady friend had her car DIE. Timing chain jumped for the last time.
A few months ago,she had been told to drive it no farther than she was willing to walk back.
Has medical problems and NEEDED a car that ran.

I became the designated negotiator to protect her from predatory practices.

Independent used dealer that I deal with and trust closes shop at 3PM Friday (BRAVO SIERRA). Did NOT have any vehicles in her price range anyway.

Checked a second dealer. Explained - NO trade-in - NO financing needed - CASH sale had his full attention. Had an older Oldsmobile in correct price range that had not been clean-up detailed yet. Small deposit got it for the weekend to have a mechanic check it out. Over weekend I noticed enough problems to kill that sale.

Monday: I called and told him that the Oldsmobile was coming back. What else do you have that is near in price range. Had two - Chrysler Town & Country and a PT Cruiser. I went alone and looked at them. Passed my inspection. Price negotiation.
NO prices marked on vehicles. While he is mentioning some price. I started a FACT! I want Car-FAx / NADA pricing / and KBB pricing for these model/equipment/mileage. IF passes mechanic and lady friends inspections will expect to pay mid price of the NADA & KBB pricing. He agreed that I was being fair and agreed.

Go get lady friend. Van was too big to suit her. PT Cruiser - That is just my size and it is so cute - I love it . She took it for a drive.

Thirty minutes later papers signed, check written, she had a car and drove home.

We MIGHT have been able to find a lower price. BUT, how much $4 gas and how many hours or running around would it have taken to save a few dollars.

She is happy. I am happy.

I usually buy used cars, but my wife was wanting a Honda Accord a couple of years back, and I could buy a new one for practically the same price as a two year old used one. Price the new ones! Used isn't always as good a deal as it once was.

I always bought new, I had a 130 mile comute to work everyday and with my other driving, fishing and hunting and running the kids around, I averaged 46K a year, I felt safer in a new car or truck, I always bought new for the wife also, really didn't need to, she didn't do the driving I did.

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Don

I used to have a fishing buddy, car salesman, that I bought new Toyotas from. He confided in me many of the tactics they are trained to use. The buddy system, good guy - bad guy. He said that the main tactic was to create a report and that if they could talk to you for one hour about sports, family, whatever, it was a guaranteed sell every time.

I sold cars for 2yrs, then powersports for 13. This guy has a great concept, and he's straight-up. It's a great show to listen to...even if his service is not in your area. At least you can get better educated about the process...


Car Pro Approved Dealers | Car Pro USA

The last vehicle I bought was in 1998. It was a new F-150 and I am still driving it. They had a sale on them in the newspaper. I got there they had four left for the sales price. I wrote them a check and was done in a few minutes. Sometimes I wish something would go wrong with it so I could justify buying a new Jeep. But the F-150 just keeps on running. I did have to replace the windshield wiper blades a few months back. If I ever do get another vehicle I think I will buy a used one from an individual and try to get one 2 to 4 years old with relatively low mileage.

Excellent advice from H Richard!

Too many folks allow it to be painful. Establish a relationship with a locally owned dealer or salesman you trust. State YOUR terms up front. If the dealership or salesman tries to vary those terms ..... walk away.

Buying a vehicle, new or used, is not painful for me.
a) I know what I want.
b) I do my homework and know what the fair price is.
c) If I'm trading, I never give them my keys or let them drive my vehicle unless I accompany them.
d) I tell the salesman I only have 15 minutes to talk.........then I'll walk............and I do it.

With me being an old geezer, sales people expect me to be "crotchedy",............I'm fully capable of doing that, but don't unless provoked.

I bought a Mini Van through my Credit Union a few years back, They treat you right.Good financing also.

As someone who has been a commercial mgr for Ford I will tell you the inside truth.Customers as a rule know nothing about the car business.They believe in markup that does not exist.every customer wants to buy new or used well below dealer cost.They expect the dealer to throw in all sorts of freebies because they feel entitled to it since its a big purchase for them.Most dealers will help locate a new or used vehicle for you, but not be caused you called on the phone. If a customer cannot take the time to meet with the dealership who will be willing to help them, why should they. Using this train of thought dealers would be buying millions of dollars of inventory without having real customers for them. Unless you are willing to loose money at your job because a customer wants a deal and feels he is special, you have no right to complain about an industry you virtually know nothing about from the inside.I was lied to more in the auto industry then I ever was as a police officer. Yet we were constantly accused of playing games???????????? because the public truly believes that the dealer is making over ten grand profit on a F 350 Drw when in fact front end gross is just under $ 900.00 which needs to pay the salesman his commission, prep the sold unit, and fill the tank.Customers high on Kool aid is why I walked away from the business.

Did you actually look at it?
Nissan has really taken a turn for the repulsive in terms of design.

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it just needs more voltage

HUMMMMM, now sit and think about it.
Don't ever buy a car you don't want---and buy a car that you want (has everything you NEED).
I gave up trying to get the best deal I could a long time ago---it added stress to an otherwise enjoyable purchase.
Searching for the best deal yo get it $500 cheaper will cost you the savings---in peptobismol, if nothing else.
I go the route most folks usually used. They found a dealership or salesman that they at least they thought they could trust. It helps if it is a family dealership.
Have a reasonable idea of the cost involved.
Tell the guy what you want---everthing you want and things you don't need.
They can find one at a dealership that will fill the needs.
Don't buy it and then continue to shop---that will always add to the pepto bill and there is always a better deal after you buy.

I went to Fords build your car web---built into it all my desires and went to my local dealership that I choose to do business with.
I think if you don't play games with them they will not play with you.
The salesman looked at the printout of my desires and got on his computer. We discussed several that were approximately what I wanted and one that was about as close as if I were to order it. He had it that afternoon---now, Houston is a big town and these folks trade cars around all the time, so that was no big deal.
Best price----who knows ! I got what I wanted and at a price I thought was reasonable.
Blessings

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TEXAS, by GOD

First in working for dealerships as a mechanic in my teens/early 20's I figured out right away that car salesman were lower than slime. There the enemy. I go in to haggle for the best price. I set my price I want to pay before I talk to anyone. If we can't get an agreement on a price I walk.
Don't call me at home with a new rock bottom price you had me there once and you should of made your best deal when I was there. I walked out into another dealer right away it's there turn.

I do internet shop using the manufacturers work sheet on the options I wanted for my '99 jeep wrangler. I picked all the heavy duty options you don't find on a lot car. The work sheet lists the items seperate. But at the dealer some items come as a package there bundled for a lesser cost. My work sheet was at 24k. The dealers price was under 21k. Since he had nothing like I wanted he ordered it built for me.

I ordered the 4.0L inline six, HD auto tranny, Dana 44 with posi rear, 373gears, HD suspension with gas shocks, 30" tires with factory aluminium rims. Two tops. I wanted it for snow plowing when it gets to the high mileage point. It's at 100k now and ready for a plow and locking front differential.

Due to dummy salesman this is my last American made car from the big three.

Beaware of the advertised 1.9 interest rate. They do a bait and switch by the time you sign the papers too. You can end up paying 3.9 to 4.9 read the agreement closely before you sign it.

I went into a Chevy dealer to buy the wife a new car. I picked out a left over cobalt. I figured it was worth $10k out the door. I walked in and I was in the WWF fighting for my price. I walked. But in the window is "we never lost a sale because of the price". What a joke. I went to a Subaru dealer and purchased the wife a better car at a good price. Of course the Chevy dealer called me, too bad you lost the deal over the price. He wouldn't drop $500 more on the price.

If you have small children, if not borrow someone's. Put them in ripped pants, dirty play clothes, you dress in your dirty work clothes then go to a dealer to purchase a car. I went into a dealer looking for the $3,700 sale model. The price is now $4,100. After haggling and telling him I just need a car to go to and from work, basic transportation. All of a sudden they had a car for $3,609. Funny they tripped all over themselves to make a sale. Go to the dealer looking poor.

I was on vacation in vt and picked up a car sales flyer from Berlin city main. The Subaru was listed for $23,000 on sale for $16,000. I went to a subaru dealer at home and he bit the deal to match another dealers price.
I got the $23,000 car for $16,000 and the factory offered a $750 for a free auto tranny upgrade. I was golden. It was at the end of the month when he had to pay the loan interest on the new cars that weren't sold yet. The right time to deal.

Do your homework and go for the deal. Don't let them scam you.

My first house cost me $29.999 go figure? My next new car will cost more.

.

Know what you want and be willing to pay a FAIR price.
The dealer also has bills to pay to be able to stay in business.
Think about the many used auto dealers that are no longer in business.

Be prepared to WALK away from insincere/unreasonable offers.

There is always another dealer down the street.

Fair dealing auto salesmen and honest lawyers suffer the stigma of the bad reputations and unethical dealing of some ... Same situation for LGS dealing with widows ...

Always do that which is right. This will satisfy some and amaze the rest.

Bekeart

Buying a car is not tough. It's the buyers that make it tough. Do your research ahead of time. Know what it is exactly that you want. Arrive at a price you are comfortable with and willing to pay. Find that car at a dealership and I guarantee you will walk out with a set of new keys in your hand and not have a knot in your stomach.
Dealers on average make about $900 on a new car and most won't go lower. Reason I know is I was Sales Manager for many years.

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Dick

Everyone likes to say this, but it has no real meaning. Define "fair price." What's fair to me might not be fair to you.

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Freedom isn't free.

Sometimes the dealer tries to judge by your appearance, particularly if going for one of the more "up-scale" models. I walked into an Acura dealer 15 years ago in T-shirt, shorts, sandals and a full beard (at 60 years of age and in the middle of July in Philadelphai!). Saw a new manual shift small Acura that I liked, plus one as a demonstrator. The sales manager would not answer my question as to "best price out of the door" but insisted that there were no cars that would suit me. Left, then made a phone call to the dealership and reached a salesman, who said come on in and gave me a price on the demo. I walked back in, ignored the SM and within 10 minutes had the new car for the same price after the salesman asked how would I like to finance it and I said "cash". The SM was very upset when I said very loudly that he needed to learn how to deal with customers and not judge by their attire!! Plenty loud enough that other people on the sales floor asked me what had happened? He lost two deals in less than 20 minutes while I was waiting for the paperwork to be finished and was subsequently fired according to my "informants" when I came back in for service. Have subsequently had excellent service for the last 15 years! Dave_n

I bought a Subaru Outback in 2011. 3 more payments and It is paid for. The salesman acted like a gentleman and gave me a price over invoice and showed me the invoice. My wife bought a 2014 Outback yesterday. Same salesman. No pressure. He just gave her keys to different models and she drove them and picked the Outback. We know that there will be a new model Outback in a few months, but she liked the current model. This time the price was $500 below invoice due to some incentives to move the 2014's. She also financed it for 0.9% interest for 63 months. Total interest to be paid is a little over $500 for the 63 months.

If I need to buy another car, you know where I will go.

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Corripe Cervisiam

Within or near to the price range given by NADA and KBB for the vehicle.
If trying to deal below book value if there is a difference of opinion about Fair / Good / Excellent condition. Then be able to point out exactly why your opinion differs. e.g. "That is not a minor dent- It is LUMPY BONDO!"

This is why I said what I said. I could easily find many ads that state their used car is in excellent condition. Based on the narrative from KBB, I've never seen a car that is in excellent condition even when looking at new cars. So, "fair" is a subjective term.

I get what you mean by saying that. Even so, value is dictated by two people; the guy with the stuff and the guy with the currency. Books, newspapers or any other source is only anecdotal. I'm going to try to get the best price I can. If I can't get it, I'll walk. No hard feelings, that's just how it goes sometimes.

I was walking along a street once and decided to look at a new truck on a lot I was passing. The short version is, the salesman asked me what price I'd be willing to pay to take the truck that day. I told him $15K. He chuckled and said that wasn't going to happen. I said I knew that. We shook hands and went our separate ways. No hard feelings. However, I wasn't fooling, if he had been willing to take the $15K, I would have bought it. That was 1990.

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Freedom isn't free.