Rules for Military Sidearms

So I was having a conversation today regarding the regulations for personal sidearms in the U.S. military after reading the post regarding a Model of 1917 that was used in Afghanistan and purchased by a forum member. Just to be clear, I'm using 'personal sidearm(s)' to refer to a firearm, probably a hand gun, allowed to be carried and used on duty but not issued by the government. Not wanting to spread incorrect information I was hoping that one of you could answer these questions:

1. What parameters must a personal sidearm conform to? Are there regulations regarding make, model, caliber etc.

2. Since expanding ammunition is forbidden, do you simply buy compliant ammunition at a LGS or have it shipped to you by retailer or family member if deployed?

3. If using a caliber commonly used by the military such as 9mm, do they officially allow govt ammo to be used in a personal sidearm (I'm sure if it isn't it's still done)?

4. Do you have to qualify or in some way demonstrate competence with the specific sidearm?

If you can think of anything additional to add that I didn't think to ask about feel free to add it as well. Also, I know many of the forum members are veterans, I would be interested to hear if you carried such a firearm and if so, what you carried.

Thanks very much.

It is my understanding that you cannot carry or use handguns other than what is issued to you. Perhaps it is different for Flag Rank or perhaps ,spec ops. I do not speak tho with any absolute knowledge one way or the other. Joe.

Think it all depends on your unit and its chain of command. I made a very nice very functional and dimensionally correct K Bar with damascus blade for a relative who was not allowed to carry it in her position as a USMC helicopter crew chief and ya she flew real combat missions.

Joe Kent said:

It is my understanding that you cannot carry or use handguns other than what is issued to you. Perhaps it is different for Flag Rank or perhaps ,spec ops. I do not speak tho with any absolute knowledge one way or the other. Joe.

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What Joe said is what I saw in the 21 years I spent in the USAF...

However, during the first Gulf War two of the pilots in my squadron had to ferry an airplane from our desert base to Rhein Main AB in Germany and back. While in Germany they bought 9mm pistols (Sigs) and ammo at the base rod & gun club.

They kept the guns hidden in their gear and would carry them instead of the "Barney Fife" 38 special S&W model 15s the rest of us were issued.

Definitely not sanctioned or approved by the leadership, but done at least on this occasion.

Edmo

IN Desert Storm, 101st Airborne medics were allowed to carry personally owned 1911's that the Army/Division sold them at a good price. They were sold 4 boxes of ball ammo and holster and cleaning kit at the same time. Many individuals had BUG's that were not authorized and non-compliant ammo that would have landed in serious trouble. But somebody had to be looking and somebody had to file paper work. In a real combat zone (back then) that didn't happen. Now days; If you live within so many miles of your base (I think 20), you have to have the base commanders written permission to have them in your home! That was a Clinton White House Directive. That hasn't seemed to stop deranged shooters at Fort Hood. Ivan

As far as I know, there aren't any units (except maybe SOCOM) that allow Personally Owned Weapons in a combat zone. The hard part wouldn't be getting the gun there though, it would be getting it back through the Customs inspection. Personally, I would look long and hard at any claims about a gun that was alledgedly carried in Iraq or Afghanistan. I'm not saying that there aren't any, but I will say that the statue of limitations probably hasn't run out yet, so anyone that actually did carry it against regulations and then illegally reimported it probably is still keeping their head down...

Ivan the Butcher said:

IN Desert Storm, 101st Airborne medics were allowed to carry personally owned 1911's that the Army/Division sold them at a good price. They were sold 4 boxes of ball ammo and holster and cleaning kit at the same time. Many individuals had BUG's that were not authorized and non-compliant ammo that would have landed in serious trouble. But somebody had to be looking and somebody had to file paper work. In a real combat zone (back then) that didn't happen. Now days; If you live within so many miles of your base (I think 20), you have to have the base commanders written permission to have them in your home! That was a Clinton White House Directive. That hasn't seemed to stop deranged shooters at Fort Hood. Ivan

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As far as I know, the Army has never sold small arms to its soldiers, unless it was a General officer at his retirement and that for the pistol he was issued when he was promoted to Brigadier General. As far as the medics, they are issued small arms, so there's no reason for them to have to go out and buy a weapon. Not saying some soldiers didn't carry personally owned weapons (look at al the Rambo knives), but there was never a solider that wasn't authorized an individual weapon, be it a pistol or rifle.

As far as personally owned weapons on post, it's true that troops living in the barracks had to store their personally owned weapons (Rambo knives, handguns, rifles, etc.) in the company arms rooms. As a company commander, that was a real pain in my rear when it came time for the monthly arms room inventory and keeping records. But as far as living off post and needing a senior commander's permission to have a weapon in my home, that just isn't true. I did have to register my guns with the post Provost Marshall to bring them on post to shoot at the on-post range. Even at Fort Lee, where I lived on post, I don't recall having to get permission to have them in my quarters. Just had to register them with the Provost Marshall.

I carried my Series 70 Colt on the DMZ in Korea in '81, and as a pay officer in a basic training company at Ft. Knox around '83.

Needless to say, things have changed a lot since then, not always for the better.

There are very few, if any, personally owned weapons being carried. Some special operations units have different weapons for different missions, but there is no official authorization for personal weapons. I'm sure there are some people carrying them, but they (and their commanders) do so at their own risk. Also, at least for the time I was there, there were a number of security contractors in-country and they carried a variety of weapons. It would not be a stretch to confuse a security contractor with some of our special ops guys (or vice versa) and make the assumption that personally owned weapons are authorized.

When I was in Vietnam when not in uniform I carried a colt cobra. When off duty we were required to wear civilian clothes but were not supposed to be bearing arms. But everyone did. There was a Army Senior NCO that carried a matched set of colt 45s. But he made it clear that the guns were not supposed to be carried. He was in charge of the convoys that ran between Dalat City and Cam Rahn Bay a very dangerous job.

our detachment had several weapons that were not issued but were military weapons we carried or kept handy they were Army surplus on loan to the Vietnamese Army, Remington 870 shotguns, the WW II grease gun in 45 cal, several M-1 carbines and a scoped M-14, 2 30 cal. machine guns from WWII and Korea and a M-60 machine gun. The Air Forced issued us M-16s and the S&W 38s.

Single Action Army

You'll recall that Gen. Patton carried a pair of Colt Single Action Armies in a western style rig. I guess rules and regs were way different back then and, being a general, gave him certain privileges.

My guess is that if you are armed incident to your military duties, the military will issue you what they think you need. While in Viet Nam, I carried a Model 1911 and an M14, both GI issue, of course.

Rules now are much tighter than in the past. The military at times seems almost weapons-phobic.

Contractors in Iraq drew weapons from their employers. My son fought there as both a soldier and later as a contractor. Frankly, his most bitter battles were as a contractor.

In the latter capacity, he carried mostly a Browning Hi-Power MK III as his handgun, as .45 autos were fairly rare and the magazines and ammo were less common than 9mm. His rifle was ether a Colt M-4 or a H-K G-3 that he bought, but was required to leave behind.

As for the 9mm vs. .45 debate, he killed several men with each and the .45 seemed a "little" more effective with the FMJ ammo required. Now a civilian, he owns guns in both calibers, but usually carries a Colt .45 with Federal HST ammo. But even 9mm hardball worked well, if one got solid hits in vital areas. I'm still glad to load my Beretta with HST or Gold Dot. Both are 124 grain Plus P rounds.

In past wars, even when orders precluded it, many men just carried private arms. In, "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo", the author said that he and his crew on the Doolittle mission B-25 all had both pistols and knives of their own, as well as the issued items. I read THAT ONE BASE COMMANDER IN Burma INSISTED ON .45 AUTOS FOR HIS ENLISTED AIRCREW, ALTHOUGH hE WAS REMINDED THAT THE aIR cORPS ISSUEd THEM ONLY TO OFFICERS. (MP'S AND OTHER SLECT PERSONNEL EXCEPTED, OF COURSE.) (Sorry, Caps Lock came on; no time to re-type. But this man prevailed and got the pistols, supposedly for "morale" reasons.

An order in Europe told bomber crews not to carry pistols or large knives. It was certainly ignored by some, probably by many. I don't know how long it was supposed to be in force.

The RAF also didn't arm bomber crews, but in, "Lancaster", the author mentioned that some had pistols, anyway. They probably got them however they could. One top-ranked RAF fighter pilot bummed a Luger from an intelligence officer. It had been taken from captured Luftwaffe crews. I guess he preferred it to an issued .38. His Mosquito was eventually shot down over Denmark, and the Germans who got him weren't happy to see him with that gun, but they didn't shoot him. Another RAF pilot carried a Beretta .32, probably also obtained from captured enemy aircrew.

federali said:

You'll recall that Gen. Patton carried a pair of Colt Single Action Armies in a western style rig. I guess rules and regs were way different back then and, being a general, gave him certain privileges.

My guess is that if you are armed incident to your military duties, the military will issue you what they think you need. While in Viet Nam, I carried a Model 1911 and an M14, both GI issue, of course.

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Patton had just one Colt .45 SAA, a fancy engraved one with which he shot some Mexicans while with Pershing in 1916. His other gun was a S&W .357 with 3.5-inch bbl. He wore smaller guns when not in battle zones, a Colt Detective Spcl. .38, and Colt and Remington .380's.

As a general, he could design his own uniform, within reason, and as such a high ranking officer, he could probably get away with a lot. Generals could receive those smaller Colts on request, and Eisenhower had a snub Colt .38. The Colt Model M .32 or .380 was the normal issue for generals, but those in battle zones frequently wore .45's, instead. Maj. Gen. James Gavin wore not just a .45 but a Randall Model 1 knife and carried a Garand rifle as commander of the 101st Airborne. (May have been the 82nd; I forget which he had and which Ridgeway had)

There are many other examples of private weapons until the first Gulf war. I cannot say here why I think the policy changed. But I wish that some personal arms were still allowed. I think that many troops still carry knives not issued, but local commanders may preclude that. My son had no trouble with a Randall Model 14 and a Marine Ka-Bar in Iraq. Spec Ops troops seem to carry whichever knives they want.

When I was in the USAF in the early 60's stationed in England I had commented to a couple of pilot's about the variety of sidearms I saw pilot's carrying on the flightline. They explained it was up to the Company Commander, who in this case was a gunner and let the pilots carry whatever they wanted (within reason). 1911's were common, as were .357's and of course the issued model 10's & 15's. 9mm was not popular back then. If it was other than a 38 they had to buy their own ammo, but I recall there was .45 available from time to time.

H Richard said:

When I was in the USAF in the early 60's stationed in England I had commented to a couple of pilot's about the variety of sidearms I saw pilot's carrying on the flightline. They explained it was up to the Company Commander, who in this case was a gunner and let the pilots carry whatever they wanted (within reason). 1911's were common, as were .357's and of course the issued model 10's & 15's. 9mm was not popular back then. If it was other than a 38 they had to buy their own ammo, but I recall there was .45 available from time to time.

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Some Navy helo guy who later wrote gun books said that he carried a Walther P-38. Aha! Gene Gangarosa. I think he served in the 1970's.

I mentioned here in another topic that the pilot who wrote, "Flight of the Intruder" and other books in that series seems to have worn a S&W M-19, which he also had his fictional hero use. His crewmate had a .45 auto and a big knife. This was also in the movie, I think. He said that Naval pilots have a pistol locker in their rooms on the carrier. They do have rooms, not open bays like enlisted personnel. This was for the Vietnam war, where the author flew A-6 Intruders. He was bitter about not having guns on the plane, which was a bomber. He said that if the plane had had guns, he could have done some useful mischief to the enemy with them. But some fighters then carried only missiles, too. Many senior planning and procurement officers are jerks who like the idea of just missiles because they want to be high tech and prestigious. Pilots facing the enemy usually want guns in the plane.

This need was soon proven, and F-4 Phantoms got guns in them. Subsequent fighters also carry guns, usually a rotating barrel Gatling/Vulcan sort.

No US military units are authorized to use personally owned weapons. With that said, many of the less conventional forces have a rather extreme amount of leeway, due to the nature of mission, how they travel, etc.

I carried my fathers 45 on a few missions in Afghanistan, but for 99% of the time I carried the unit issued handgun, for interchangeability/ammo availability/etc.

Deployments put a LOT of wear on firearms... we were typically issued a new rifle/pistol per deployment, and of course could have it maintained/replaced downrange if need be. wear greatly varies with type of mission, and although I had opportunity to bring my own guns many times, I got it out of my system in one tour.... I probably would not do the same again.

I can assure you, without going into detail, that shipping firearms or anything else into/out of a military contingency zone is incredibly easy.... like "getting into the USA through Mexico" easy....

In 1952 Korea many marine riflemen carried personal weapons. I purchased a S&W 38 combat masterpiece as a sleeping bag gun at the Camp Pendleton px before I left for Korea. Most marines who rotated home sold their weapons to one of their buddies. Later on heard that they banned personal weapons as there were to many accidental shootins back in reserve. The marines that I knew would probably just hide their weapon until they went back up on line. Nobody bothered us with chicken s--- up on line.

One day My old buddy Milt was making house calls up in North Korea.
He had just shot an enemy soldier in the house next-door and did not realize that his 1911 had smokestacked.
He kicked the door open and another enemy soldier appeared in front.
He raised up his 1911 to shoot then he realized it was smokestacked.
The enemy soldier raised his rifle and then there is a loud noise.
Milt had been in explosions before but he never been shot. As he started to think was I shot the enemy soldier collapsed in front of him.
Master Sgt. George Crabtree was right behind him. George had put his M1 right up under Milts right ear and killed the enemy soldier.

I can only speak for my experience with the Air Force, but the previous are correct. If you're in a position where you might need a gun, the Air Force will issue you one.

In fact, the Air Force does that with any tool. Even pocket knives are not allowed. If you need one, they will issue it to you. That's not to say most guys don't carry one, they just aren't authorized.

Back in the 1980's the aircrews in the Fighter Squadron to which I was assigned carried whatever they wanted...I saw Pythons, 586's, 92's, Hi-Powers, etc. Everyone just stuck them in their SV-2 and went about their business.