WWII battlefield archaeology - Eastern front

I've always been fascinated with battlefield archaeology, and ran across a Facebook page called Ghosts of the Eastern Front. The details of the where and who are pretty scant, but the pictures are incredible.

The amount of artifacts still present along the eastern front is astounding, as is the sheer number of human remains, often at or barely below the surface.

The group regularly uncovers weapons and unexploded ordnance. Here are a few of the guns:











I won't post a link, because some of the photos of recovered remains are pretty disturbing.

Did you ever see or read that bit about how on the Seelow-Heights, they are digging up so many MP-44's that it's causing some people to doubt that the current estimated production figures for the weapon are correct and that probably many more were produced?

Almost no MP-40's or K-98's are buried -- because the Russians already had the tactical equivilent. But many MP-44's are buried and the ONLY reason that they'd be buried with the bodies would be because those still living already had one. So some of the researchers are starting to think that -- towards the end -- the assault rifles might have been more plentiful than originally thought.

Kind of interesting in a morbid sort of way. You've probably come across photos of this as you're probably looking through similar sites as I've looked through.

This to me is a grey area. Even National Geographic managed to create an outrage among the professional archaeologists few years back with a series they were going to present showing the digging up of a WW II battlefield. The outrage was so severe that the series was cancelled.
Jim

I'd be on the side of digging up ALL battle sites thoroughly. Unexploded ordnance would be my dominant motivator.

I'd think the lost combatants would be OK with preventing injury or death for innocents that come after their passing.

Gravesite or not, UXB is a real deal.

Snapping Twig said:

I'd be on the side of digging up ALL battle sites thoroughly. Unexploded ordnance would be my dominant motivator.

I'd think the lost combatants would be OK with preventing injury or death for innocents that come after their passing.

Gravesite or not, UXB is a real deal.

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One of the travel shows was exploring the area of WWI trench warfare in France. The local farmers are constantly digging-up poison gas warheads and other ordinance and leaving them unattended at the roadside where they are collected by a dedicated team of government specialists. The apparent lack of concern by the farmers was incomprehensible.

calmex said:

....they are digging up so many MP-44's that it's causing some people to doubt that the current estimated production figures for the weapon are correct and that probably many more were produced?.....

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There was a story in the news a couple of years ago. The rebels in Syria had captured a Government weapons warehouse. They let the press in to take pictures. The pictures showed the warehouse was stacked floor to ceiling with crates of MP-44's. Thousands of them.

It was just a couple of years ago, and I've always wonder what happened to those Sturmgewehrs. Are the rebels using them? Were they dumped in the ocean? I suppose, maybe, it depends on whether they found a corresponding warehouse full of 7.92×33mm Kurz ammo.

sigp220.45 said:

I've always been fascinated with battlefield archaeology, and ran across a Facebook page called Ghosts of the Eastern Front. The details of the where and who are pretty scant, but the pictures are incredible.

The amount of artifacts still present along the eastern front is astounding, as is the sheer number of human remains, often at or barely below the surface.

The group regularly uncovers weapons and unexploded ordnance. Here are a few of the guns:











I won't post a link, because some of the photos of recovered remains are pretty disturbing.

Click to expand...

There's a place where field artillery and quad AA guns are still sitting in the fields. There are also fields in Finland where the bogs preserved the bodies like the day they fell!

calmex said:

Did you ever see or read that bit about how on the Seelow-Heights, they are digging up so many MP-44's that it's causing some people to doubt that the current estimated production figures for the weapon are correct and that probably many more were produced?

Almost no MP-40's or K-98's are buried -- because the Russians already had the tactical equivilent. But many MP-44's are buried and the ONLY reason that they'd be buried with the bodies would be because those still living already had one. So some of the researchers are starting to think that -- towards the end -- the assault rifles might have been more plentiful than originally thought.

Kind of interesting in a morbid sort of way. You've probably come across photos of this as you're probably looking through similar sites as I've looked through.

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You mean the STG?

If so .... A LOT were captured and / or sold to Yugoslavia. At one point after the war their entire army was outfitted with STGs.
Have you seen the Syrian STG find?

italiansport said:

This to me is a grey area. Even National Geographic managed to create an outrage among the professional archaeologists few years back with a series they were going to present showing the digging up of a WW II battlefield. The outrage was so severe that the series was cancelled.
Jim

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I don't know how or what they did but it's a shame it was cut short. Most countries have professional military archeologists who routinely go and dig up old battlefields and remove the dead.

I have a great grandfather in one of those somewhere

After WWII end the Soviets kept the MP-44 in production. That's likely were most we see today came from. East Germany also used a lot of MP-44's. Certain reserve units into the 1980's. Syria has been allied with Russia since the 1950's. Hard to say how long those Sturmgewehrs have been sitting in storage.

They are still very much around

Current





A whole bunch


Yugoslavia paratroopers of the 50s

Very interesting. See a lot of these diggings and the results of what they find on War Relic Forum. Just saw a video of a Mark IV being hauled out of a lake in Poland. Some of the finds are impressive to say the least.

What happens to the weapons that the find?

I was lucky enough when I lived in Canada to have two MP-44 rifles "close at hand" that I could play with. The Trotter Machinegun Museum in Belmont, Manitoba had a nice MP-43 marked example and my best friend at the time had a minty STG-44 marked gun I could shoot as much as I wanted to pretty much. Both Trotter and my friend got several crates of 7.92 x 33 ammo -- I don't know where they got it but they had quite a bit. So we could shoot the rifles. The steel-cased, laquered ammo they got was corrosive and we had to clean the guns accordingly after firing them.

The guns were quite good at dropping 18 inch metal plates out to about 300 yards and still retained enough energy to knock one over at 400 if you could hit it. The sight radius is not that great and the sights are a V back-sight with an inverted V front inside a sight protecter if I recall.

Full-auto at close range, they're deadly. Almost as easy to control as a Thompson. You couldn't kiss the butt of an MP-44 and fire it on full-auto but you could certainly keep it on a 55 gallon drum 20 yards downrange easily enough.

My best friend and his STG-44. It was his "signature gun".



I have some old VHS tapes of me and some friends shooting 55 gallon drums on the Trotter Museum range with the MP-43. This poor-quality photo is an off-take from that day.




One of my Ice Cream Store employees on an "exchange trip" to Canada nervously handles the Trotter Museum MP-43. She got to shoot it too.



I "babysat" my friends STG-44 once while he was out of town and the only photo I took of the experience was this one, propped against my bedroom wall.



I like this photo. Shooting my own MG-34 I had at the time. That's my friend's STG-44 just laying on the grass there beside me. Like a "just lay it on the grass" attitude.



An MP-44 and a 1928 Thompson are fairly similar in weight, but I wouldn't try kissing the butt of the MP-44 on full-auto. At least, I don't think I would. I've never tried it. But I don't think it would be a good idea. The MP-44 is still very controllable though. Very neat guns.

Texasgordo said:

What happens to the weapons that the find?

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Museum or museum archives

Fascinating, but I cannot help think that it is a cover for Putin looking for weapons to give his current military. Just a little Rustoleum...

Is that Luger numbers matching?

What was their quibble?

italiansport said:

This to me is a grey area. Even National Geographic managed to create an outrage among the professional archaeologists few years back with a series they were going to present showing the digging up of a WW II battlefield. The outrage was so severe that the series was cancelled.
Jim

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What was their main beef? That people might start digging up battlefields w/o the supervision of a professional archaeologist?

battlefield finds

sigp220.45 said:

I've always been fascinated with battlefield archaeology, and ran across a Facebook page called Ghosts of the Eastern Front. The details of the where and who are pretty scant, but the pictures are incredible.

The amount of artifacts still present along the eastern front is astounding, as is the sheer number of human remains, often at or barely below the surface.

The group regularly uncovers weapons and unexploded ordnance. Here are a few of the guns:











I won't post a link, because some of the photos of recovered remains are pretty disturbing.

Click to expand...

Neat photos I'd bet that T33 Tokarev still fires

3482jl said:

Neat photos I'd bet that T33 Tokarev still fires

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Is that rifle a Enfield Model 1917 ?