I am looking for a one inch vernier micrometer that 1.will not cost a bunch and 2. will actually be accurate to 0.0001 inch.I borrowed a chinese one and was not impressed.
Suggestions ?????

.0001 is tough to get a FEEL FOR, and for accuracy down that close you really need to be in a temperature controlled atmosphere. (68 degrees + or - 1/2 of a degree). The part should be cleaned of all oils, hand or otherwise, and have rested in that atmosphere for a period of 24 hour first. Usually when accuracy that close or finer it's done with electronic measurements. Some folks seem to think that MICROMETERS are C-CLAMPS when they try to use them.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I have one, but it is far from new - a 1" Starrett vernier. I seldom need the 0.0001" precision, but I have a few times. Depending on your budget, you might check on eBay for used ones. The 1" micrometer I use most is a no-name 0.001" non-vernier. No trick to estimate to 0.0005 or less even without the vernier. No idea who made it, but it works OK for me.

Thanks guys! Yes I know for the most part 0.0001 inch is a stretch.I just do not want one that is inaccurate.
I was looking at the Starrett site and found a Starrett T436.1XFL-1 that looked good.Anyone familiar with this mic?

check the local pawn shops. sometimes if there is a lot of machining in the area and there are layoffs sometimes the tools are the first to go to the pawn shop for money. these machine shops usually had an inspection program to make sure that they are working properly. I got a .0001 inch Starrett for $15 at a pawn shop

Thank you,I will do just that!

A pawn shop might be a good idea, maybe also Craigslist. I once bought a nice boxed nest of micrometers from 1" to 6" at an estate sale for I think about $30. Most of them I have never needed to use, but if I ever do, I have them. They did need some TLC to get back into working condition. For most of my needs, a dial caliper works just fine. I have a pair of Mitutoyos, 4" and 8", also I have a 20" vernier caliper, again something I have very seldom needed. It reads to 0.01". For some reason I cannot warm up to using digital measuring instruments, probably because I grew up in an analog world.

I have a 1" Starrett "C clamp" vernier along with a Watch-Craft branded vernier bench micrometer. The Starrett will go to .0001" and the Watch-Craft goes to .01mm.

Both were used. The Starrett cost me $20 I think, while the Watch-Craft was in another lot of watchmaker's tools.

Use some care when buying a used one. The jaws should be perfectly parallel and have a mirror polish. Otherwise, you're going to introduce some error just from measuring at different places on the jaw. The screw should offer a small amount of resistance, but should be easy to turn with one finger. On the ones I have, it's possible to adjust the ratchet tension and it needs to be set correctly to get good measurements.

BTW, I was taught to click the ratchet 3 times. I at least get repeatable results by doing this.

Also, at the level of precision you're considering, a bench micrometer will really serve you better than a hand held "C" one if it's such that you can use it. Thermal expansion is a real issue, again especially at the precision you're discussing. Bench micrometer are much less susceptible to this, both because they're not being held in your hand and the fact that they have a lot more mass.

Starrett in general is excellent quality. You won't go wrong with it

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Retired Career Security Guard

There are vernier calibers, but none that are accurate to a tenth of a thousandth. And there are micrometers that are accurate to a tenth of a thousandth, if they are calibrated. But there are no things as vernier micrometers.

As noted, Starrett makes some high quality measuring equipment. If you buy used, you can save money, but you also need to be able to check it to ensure it's still accurate and properly calibrated. Calibrating is easy if you have the tool to turn the micrometer's barrel. But calibrating doesn't mean the micrometer is accurate. If the micrometer's threads are worn or damaged, no amount of calibration will make it accurate.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

Your post reminded me of a blog post by Grant Cunningham.

"Bull-loney Tenths"

(Not the ACTUAL name of that page, but censors would've intercepted it otherwise.)

If you want to try and measure in tenths get a set of window "mikes", either Brown and Sharp or Starrett. But as others have suggested Micrometer's were not intended to be used to measure work that close. In most cases + - .005" is close enough for most work.

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Always Stay Strong!

I'll argue that. A vernier is the read out on any device where you have to look at where the lines align, not to be confused with dial or digital tools.

Most micrometers are is in fact a vernier device.

I prefer a mike with a friction thimble. Most ratchet thimbles are more like an impact wrench. You can probably get a nice Brown & Sharpe on eBay for $30 - $50. Micrometers are definitely made to measure to a tenth. As a Tool & Die maker I've been doing it for 40+ years.

I have never personally seen one that accurate with a vernier scale. I have personally used a digital caliper that had an accuracy of +/-.00005". So, it's possible.


This is simply inaccurate. This is a vernier micrometer:


This is a digital micrometer:

This one still has a basic vernier scale though.

Um, what? No, turning the barrel is not calibrating. That's how you zero the scale.


I've been a Metrologist for 32 years. I've calibrated thousands of micrometers. New ones, old ones, expensive ones and cheap ones. There are micrometers that have a +/-.001" tolerance, but they aren't worth having. A digital caliper is much easier to use. Most micrometers are +/-.0001" and take a little skill to read. Do you need that tolerance? Yes, if you want to trust your measurement.

I would discourage you from buying a used micrometer. They are easily damaged and very few actually know how to take care of them.

The real question here is, what is expensive to you? To some $100 is inexpensive and to some it's expensive.

Starrett does make quality tools, but they are not the best. My "go to" measuring company is Mitutoyo. However, Brown & Sharpe, Fowler and Starrett do make good tools.

The next question is, what will you use this for? I have access to some measuring tools with far more resolution than you're asking for, but I use this most of the time:


The accuracy is +/-.001" which is more than most people need. Also, it's easier to read digital than a vernier scale. More, this measures inside, outside and depth. A micrometer can only measure one dimension.

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I agree with you Zonker, I'm not a master machinest, but I have
spent a lot of time with the old transits ( not at the time I was
using them ) that were read off Vernier with glass. As a matter of
fact all my good measuring instrument are the old vernier type.
Various types of Mics, calipers, gauges. I do have some dial read
out types, but they are not the quality of my old Starret stuff. I
use them a lot for cases and such. Living in the Rust Belt good
tools are easy to pick up at yard sales, for reasonable prices.

The .0001 mic that I have has 10 markings below the scale on the sleeve. When two marks don't line up on the sleeve and barrel, you turn the mic slightly and see which of the ten marks on the sleeve line up with a mark on the barrel. So if the mic read .750+ and the 3rd mark lines up, the reading is .7503

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Good advice. Look for one that comes with a "standard" so you can check your calibration as often as you like on all your measuring tools.
I personally own a full set of inside and outside mics but 99%of the time I use my Fowler digital calipers which read to .0005".
While good tools are a lasting pleasure, I'm curious as to when you need accuracy to .0001". . . or .0005" for that matter.
C. Scott

for most normal uses .001 is close enough for government work however if you work in a machine shop and depending upon the parts you are working with you will need .0001 accuracy

I have Starrett and Brown & Sharpe mikes from way back when, know how to zero them. Used them for precision work when I worked in the shop. They never let me down.

We can split hairs about how flat is flat, or how round, or what diameter, but in most cases since retirement +/-.001 is more than close enough. We could argue light bands though. :-)

There are other specialized instruments based on the thimble, such as depth micrometers and tubing wall thickness micrometers. I made my own tubing wall thickness micrometer from a conventional micrometer for use in turning rifle cartridge necks to uniform thickness. It looks crude, but it works fine. The Vernier feature is simply a way of accurately estimating the distance between two graduations using a secondary scale, and there are indeed both vernier micrometers and vernier calipers. And other instruments also use vernier scales, such as the aforementioned surveyor's transit, where it is used for measuring angles precisely and also marine sextants (not many of either are in use these days).

The only correct answer to this is, it depends.

First we need to nail down some terminology. Unfortunately, the term "calibrate" is used differently by different people. In the USAF we used "calibrate" to mean: verify manufacturer's specifications by comparing against a standard. In most civilian parlance, calibrate adds this to the above statement: ...and adjust to nominal.

There are several aspects of a micrometer that need to be checked/adjusted to say that it was calibrated:

• Flatness
• Parallelism
• Linearity
• Repeatability
• Accuracy

Not necessarily in that order.

Because of how a micrometer works, if the face of the anvil and spindle are not flat and parallel, it won't be linear. If it's not repeatable, it won't be accurate.

I have seen some micrometers that are adjustable for zero and full scale, but they are rare. It's usually not worth the time to make the adjustment. So, to "calibrate" a micrometer, it is checked against a standard and if it doesn't pass, toss it.

If you have to adjust the zero of the micrometer after the initial adjustment, I would suspect the whole thing of being mishandled.

These are the tools needed to calibrate a micrometer:

Optical Flat


Gauge Blocks


I prefer the ceramic gauge blocks because they can be handled without gloves. But you should use gloves anyway to combat thermal expansion. No normal person is going to have a set of gauge blocks handy because they cost about $4K for a calibrated set.

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Now lets talk about scales.

This is a vernier scale:

It is read by first seeing where the zero of the small scale lines up relative to the large scale. In this case it falls between 2.8 and 2.9 which is easy to see. If no more precision is necessary, stop here. However, if you want to be more precise, the bottom scale is used. To do this, find the line on the bottom scale that most closely lines up with a line on the top scale. This is not so easy. In this drawing the red arrow is pointing to the 6.2 line, but we could argue if that's really the measurement. No one will argue that the closest major division is 6 and we could then call the measurement 2.86. If we needed more precision we could say it's 2.862 if we believe the red arrow.

Vernier scales are not easy to read when the highest level of precision is necessary. Therefore, I don't recommend them if you can avoid it.

On a micrometer it looks like this:


This is read by first reading the scale on the sleeve or barrel. It is read by noting where the bottom of the thimble is. If this is a 1" micrometer, the thimble is sitting between .275 and .3. Then the number on the thimble is added like this: .275+.023=.298. But the thimble scale isn't perfectly on a line either so, we have to add the next number that is indicated by the lines around the barrel and where they most closely line up with a line on the thimble. This is a drawing and doesn't line up properly, but lets say the first line past zero is the one that lines up. That would make this reading: .275+.023+.0001 or .2981".

Micrometers like this are a pain to use. First you have to be very gentle and consistent with how tightly you close it. Then you have to turn the thing around to make the reading. If you have to remove it from the device to make the reading, you risk moving the thimble and that ruins the reading.

Digital is better if only for saving your eyes.


A micrometer like this does not have a vernier scale:


This is a direct reading scale. Still have to add the thimble to the barrel reading. It has less precision, but is much easier to use. Digital is better.

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Vernier refers to a specific type of marking on the scale of the instrument that makes reading an additional digit relatively easy.

Most are familiar with them on calipers, but they are common on micrometers and many other types of instruments with a mechanical scale. I have mics both with and without a vernier scale, and the ones with a vernier scale are definitely the easier ones to use.

I have a two pan analytical balance as part of instrument/glassware collection(I'm a chemist) with a vernier scale on the gold chain. It makes reading the last decimal place(.0001g is a typical precision on this type of balance) very easy.

Out of curiosity, as I said I was taught "3 clicks on the clutch" for using a mic. It at least gives me repeatable results. I'm just curious, however, if this is the correct way to use one.

I'd appreciate an answer on this from somewhat who definitely seems to know what they're talking about.

If you insist on buying a used micrometer, look very closely at the spindle and anvil faces. If they look like this:


Find another micrometer.

The damage you can see on this micrometer is enough to make any measurement at the .0001" resolution useless. It might be good enough to use to .001", but for that the digital caliper is much easier to use.

Also, if you pick up a used micrometer and see that it was stored with the spindle touching the anvil, reject it. Storing it this way will promote corrosion and could mean they over-tightened it which will damage the faces.

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Unfortunately, there is no standard for this. The addition of the clutch was brilliant. It allows for a very consistent amount of pressure to be used.

When I was calibrating these, I used one click. I would bring the spindle close and then gently move it until it touched. Then I would give it one click. This gave me the most repeatable readings.

I did do some experimentation along these lines though. I found that if I brought the anvil and spindle together gently, one click was enough and two or more, gentle, clicks didn't change the reading. However, if I brought the spindle and anvil together too quickly or with too much force, the reading would change based on how much extra pressure was exerted by the rate of closure.

What's more important is doing it the same every time. By having a standard of 3 clicks, you made for very consistent measurements and that's a good thing.

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Thanks-I'm glad to know that I'm at least not doing any harm. When I'm taking a measurement and know I'm getting close, I approach the first click with care and then slowly add the two additional clicks.

BTW, I use my bench mic wherever possible. Do my comments about thermal expansion of handheld ones have any merit?

For reference, my main use for mics is in watchmaking work, so both precise and accurate measurements(I use the word precise as a scientist-i.e. repeatable) are important.

Absolutely! However, you have to take into consideration the level of precision necessary.

For most home measurements, a resolution of .001" is enough. At that level of resolution/precision thermal expansion is not critical enough to make a noticeable difference for most people. When you increase your precision to the .0001" level it matters more. If you hold the micrometer in your hand for 5 minutes, that's enough to change the reading more than .0001". This is why we always use cotton gloves when handling devices like this. It reduces the incidence of corrosion from the oils on your hand and reduces the effect of thermal expansion/contraction on the measurement device and device under test.

For watch making it is very important. The pieces are so small, even a little expansion through the heat from your hand, can make a part not fit. If I were you, and it was possible, I'd hold the part under test with tweezers and only touch the clutch of the micrometer.

Most people don't have the luxury of working at a bench in a controlled environment though. It's not the end of the world to be outside in 90°F either. As long as all the parts are at the same temperature, the measurement should be good.

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Rastoff: good and informative posts! I will say though that since our mics all had carbide tips, we'd get our rear end chewed out if we got them anywhere near a gauge block. We used gauge blocks to measure and set indicators with, but were told to never use one with a mic. They (our instructors) didn't mind us using verniers or the new fangled dial calipers on them though because the surfaces weren't carbide and wouldn't mar the blocks. BTW: we called them Jo Blocks, as the manufacturers name was Johansson (pronounced Yo-hanson).

Then there was an apprentice who blued up a gauge block and used it set his surface grinder height by letting the wheel take off the bluing.

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Thank you all for all the help and information!Much more than I thought I would receive !I guess then it will not hurt to use my Chinese mic as a glueing clamp !

Trust me when I say that "lesson 0" in watchmaking is how to use tweezers(it's not as straight-forward as one would think) and once mastered your tweezers do become an extension of your hand.

In fact, I have a pair of Dumont #2s that are significantly shorter than a new pair. They are my primary tweezers, and I dread the day when they pass the length where they can reasonably be sharpened.

It's unimaginable to me to place something in a mic with my hands. It may be with my tweezers(most often), it could be held in a piece of pithwood or rodico(a type of watchmakers sticky tack) or it might be a piece on the lathe.

I have always stopped at the first click. I've never seen anything which says how many clicks are appropriate. I have a metric micrometer without the little ratchet clutch on the spindle, so I just go until I feel a little resistance without forcing it.

I understand they want to be careful with their gauge blocks, but this is unwarranted. How do you think we calibrated micrometers? Yep, even the carbide ones, which was most of what we saw, were used on the gauge blocks. Of course we spent a decent amount of time cleaning before anything touched the gauge block.

Please tell me he was fired the same day. This guy clearly doesn't understand measurement.

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I almost forgot to ask......what do you mean when you say "verniers"?

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, how we use terms varies with industry and location. To my father-in-law this was a vernier:

Of course that is actually a dial caliper.

This is a vernier caliper:


This is a digital caliper:



Hi. My name is Rastoff and I'm a metrology nerd.
Metrology is the science of weights and measures.

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fortunately for him, none of the supervisors saw him do it. His fellow apprentices ragged on him bad enough he never thought about doing it again.

And what we referred to as verniers are in your second picture. We had them up to 6 feet long.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

When using those Digital Calipers or Micrometers PLEASE keep in mind that just because the digital readout go to 5, 6 or more decimal places it does not mean that they are accurate to that many decimal placed.

I have worked in quality Assurance for over 40 years and been in aerospace work for about 30. The digital tools are very nice and make it easy to read the measurement BUT it does not change the basic precision possible from a given kind of tool. Unfortunate enough people think they do and that the tool is accurate or precise to 6 or 7 decimal places because the readout says so.

A sliding caliper, whether it has a vernier scale, a dial or a digital readout is still about a .002 precision tool and I prefer not to use then on tolerances less than .005.

A decent micrometer is capable of "tenths" (.0001) precision but there are even better tools when you need to measure that closely.

In quality assurance the "Rule of ten" is used, The tool needs to be tn times more precise in its discrimination than the tolerance. For a .001 tolerance the tool must be "accurate" to .00001.

There is also a huge difference between Discrimination, Accuracy, and Precision. But that is an argument for another day

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Sceva
OGCA SWCA NRA

This is a accurate statement, but you can use them to their limit. Almost all digital calipers have an accuracy of +/-.001" and they can be used to that accuracy.

I guess you could do that, but it's a personal choice not an industry standard.

Just out of curiosity, what's a better tool?

Really? This is not the standard the USAF uses. In metrology we use a 4:1 rule. That means a standard must be at least 4 times more accurate than the tool it is being used to calibrate. Your example is 100:1, but I'm sure it's a typo. 10:1 is a very difficult ratio to maintain.

I'm curious, what do you mean when you say discrimination?

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I'm just going to come out and say it. Some of you guys could use a hobby.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Precision tools can be a hobby in and of themselves.

I'm always surprised to see a comment like this on a forum with a heavy emphasis on collecting. The same could be said about folks who hunt down specific S&Ws in particular configurations, or spend hours arguing over the "best"powder.

Our inspection department had something similar to this.

Don't know if it was 'better', but they took it's word over what our micrometers or calipers said.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

This lit'l Starrett repeats purty good, but working in tenths ain't cheap.





If'n when I needed to work in tenths or closer....

It called for the 'Jo' blocks on the double A Starrett surface plate.




.

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Ben, that was called sarcasm.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Back in the inter-war period, Mauser in Germany made precision measuring instruments. I understand they are quite valuable to such collectors if you happen to find find one.

A personal Opinion based on many years of using, maintaining and Calibrating Precision Tools. I have seen plastic calipers with a digital readout capable of 5 decimal placed but it did not make the tool accurate


Better Tool : For one "tenth" (.0001) or less? A Mahr Comparator, an Air Gage or a Supermike come to mind - Both have a discrimination and precision of 50 millionths (.00005) and less


Yes a Typo - Should have been .0001. The Air Force is much more forgiving than many of our customers. The Aerospace requirement flowed do from are customers is normally the 10 to 1 ratio as a preferred ratio with 4-1 often being the bare minimum that can be used and then we need to justify it. We are holding Gear index and involute and lead tolerances to 0.0004 and less. A normal tolerance for a bearing journal or bearing race is 0.0002 to 0.0005. Those are not typos they are X number of ten thousandths of an inch - The tools used to measure then must be capable if discriminating down to the nearest 10 to 50 millionth.
Also; we need to perform Gage R & R (repeatability and Reliability) studies to back up the use of a given gage. The results must show the combined gage and operator variation using no more than 20% of the tolerance.

Discrimination and precision go hand in hand and is the fineness of the scale on the tool. with digital readouts it can easily be out to 5 and more decimal places but with an analog gage you need to be able to clearly see the lines for .00005, .0001, .0005, .001 etc. This is why the finer the discrimination or precision the larger the dial face or tool in order to clearly see the spacing between the lines.


In actually inspection parts and making measurements : Discrimination is the preciseness of the readout, precision is how close the readings are to each other and accuracy is how close the readings are to the result wanted. I.E. Precision - Taking 10 measurements and the less variation between them the greater the precision. How Close the readings are to the actual size is the accuracy. You can be accurate but not precise and precise but not accurate. The goal is to be both precise and accurate.

Think of it as shooting at a target a large group centered on the X-Ring is accurate but not too precise, a small group in the upper corner of the target is accurate but not precise while a smell group placed exactly where you wanted it is both precise and accurate.

But all this is getting away from choosing a gage .

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Sceva
OGCA SWCA NRA

This is the exact opposite of what I was taught and what I teach(I am an analytic chemist both by training and profession).

For shooting, getting all of the shots in the same place is precision. Getting them where you intended them to go is accuracy. PC textbooks use a dartboard analogy, but it's all the same.

In the "real world"-i.e. if I'm looking over a bunch of data-one of the things I look for is "repeatability", which is effectively the same as precision. In fact, if an instrument has a known but consistent error, we'll still use it and simply account for the inaccurate but precise measurement.

In graduate school, I spent a lot of time using one particular GC-MS and-being the good advisor that he was-my advisor would always ask me how much I trusted those numbers. Finally, I made up a sample of the compounds I was looking at, and made 30 sequential injections into the instrument. The precision guaranteed by Agilent(the instrument manufacturer) was a relative standard deviation of 10%, and my 30 injections gave me a 4% rsd. That was enough to satisfy my advisor . BTW, once I'd established what I was looking for, my first run(in triplicate) of the day was always a standard of the three compounds I was interested in both to verify retention time and mass accuracy from the mass spectrometer. All my samples were then run in triplicate, and I would run the standard again after the last sample.

Search Fleabay for Starrett and Brown & Sharp Micrometers and you can get excellent ones actually USA made for under $20 bucks. I own at least a dozen of them (all slightly different) and some are over 60 - 80 years old and still new in their original wooden boxes.

Used micrometers are usually still just as accurate as when they were new and unless someone actually went out of their way to ruin one, they are quite durable, adjustable & timeless.

Seems the younger generation prefers digital Calipers to Vernier Micrometers which is great for us!

28 here, and I much prefer analogue tools for serious work(although for a quick measurement I will grab a digital caliper).

I actually have some fairly interesting mics. One of mine is a German brand whose name I forget. In any case, though, it's an "automatic" dial bench mic that closes by spring pressure. I need to take some gauge blocks and measure its linearity, but I know it's at least repeatable.

I also have a US made "Federal" spring mic that sits on my desk. It's a beautiful piece with a two-part enamel dial(to allow zeroing by turning the bezel) and will repeatably go to .001".

In watchmaking, it's common that an interference type gauge is the best tool for the job. I have an "Obama" branded(German made, so I suspect no relation to the better known Obama family) hole gauge with a long, gently tapered spring loaded needed. It's simply pushed through the hole until the gauge bottoms out, and the hole size can be read directly off that. Also very useful is something that came in my Seitz jeweling kit. It's a metal plate with 40 Seitz jewels pressed into it and the corresponding ID of the jewel marked below it. When trying to correctly size a replacement jewel, you just take the part and go down the row until you find one that fits and allows the pivot to spin freely.

62 here and I was always taught to rely on Analog / mechanical or an actual read out for most accurate readings. In my admittedly old fashioned mind, Digital is UNverifiable and you are 100% reliant on a LED or LCD read out and condition of batteries. With the actual mechanical Starrett or B&S there are no mistakes (assuming there aren't any inherent damages to that tool).

I am very happy to see a 28 year old guy who actually has and uses mechanical instruments! Any vintage mechanical Micrometer in good working order will last it's owner a lifetime with simple basic maintenance and reasonable care. Digitals - - - who knows??

When you find a job doing something you enjoy, you never work a day in your life. Measurement is my hobby. It's not for everyone.

I've heard this a lot, but it's not true. Digital is every bit as good or better than analog. It's just a different way of doing things. People trust what they're comfortable with.

This is a misnomer. The digital instruments are designed so that battery condition is not a factor; if it's still lit up, it's still accurate. If the battery gets low enough to where it will interfere with the measurement, the unit will just turn off.

The problem with any mechanical device is backlash. This is the slop seen in the gears. No matter how finely a device is made, there will always be some room for the gears to move. If there weren't, they would bind. A very high quality set of gears will have very little backlash, but it will still be there. This is where the digital device shines. They can make a very cheap digital caliper that has no backlash (we can discuss hysteresis another time). To get a really good dial caliper with very little backlash will cost a bundle.

You can look it up, but all the general calipers on the market today are +/-.001" unless you fork out some serious cash or buy something for $5 which is just a waste of money.


I am very happy to see a 28 year old guy who actually has and uses mechanical instruments! Any vintage mechanical Micrometer in good working order will last it's owner a lifetime with simple basic maintenance and reasonable care. Digitals - - - who knows??[/QUOTE]

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