Why don't promoters have a hidden shooter to counter these attacks?

amazingflapjack · Oct 2, 2017

I would like to hear the thoughts of forum members on why these large venue promoters don't have a hidden shooter to counter these attacks(?) Regards, Flapjack.

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This can run for now.
STICK to the topic. If it keeps drifting off topic, I'll close it.

oneounceload · Oct 2, 2017

How many are you going to need, and at what cost? What if this person used a bomb instead? TOO many variables to try and cover every single possibility.

petepeterson · Oct 2, 2017

amazingflapjack said:
I would like to hear the thoughts of forum members on why these large venue promoters don't have a hidden shooter to counter these attacks(?) Regards, Flapjack.

I asked the same question. Open-aired event like that? Maybe I'm warped, but it's the first thing I thought of. Or at least a helicopter to react quickly. If you see a window blow out, you'd know something was up.

MCorps0311 · Oct 2, 2017

Another "nut "that give's guns a bad grade in the eyes of the public.

Drm50 · Oct 2, 2017

It's the price we pay for living in a free society. Then throw in the
closing down of mental homes and turning these people on the
streets, millions of illegals from all over the world with axes to
grind, politics, religion, narcotics, we are lucky we don't see more
of it. Loners intent on mayhem are almost impossible to stop, and
they are happy to die doing it.

427mach1 · Oct 2, 2017

Cost, liability, and perception. What if the hired gun shoots the wrong person? If there are armed guards, it gives the impression that the venue is not safe and ticket sales would suffer.

daddio202 · Oct 2, 2017

I am sorry to say there is just no way to anticipate and or stop people that are crazy from doing such crazy things. Just think anybody on a 2 lane road at any time could easily veer into oncoming head on traffic and kill. We have continued for many years to make more and more rules, each rule -made we give up just a little more freedom. Tha bad apples spoil the bunch. Sad very sad indeed.

handejector · Oct 2, 2017

This can run for now.
STICK to the topic. If it keeps drifting off topic, I'll close it.

DeathGrip · Oct 2, 2017

handejector said:
This can run for now.
STICK to the topic. If it keeps drifting off topic, I'll close it.

What was the topic?

Oh, Shoulda Woulda Coulda.

It's a sad day. What the H.

nachogrande · Oct 2, 2017

SNIPERS???

The LEOS were extremely lucky they found the shooter so fast. If the shooter had thought to disable the hotel smoke alarm he would have been able to shoot much longer. Not too likely a hidden shooter at the venue would be able to find, or get a clear shot a target IMO. A nice thought, but I just don't see it working out so well. I'm sure there will be much more beefed up security both uniformed & undercover. Kind of a learn as we go thing, unfortunately.

Mistered · Oct 2, 2017

If you see a window blow out, you'd know something was up.

I doubt even this would have been seen from the distance. Hidden shooter on standby ? - bad idea for all the aforementioned reasons.

Absalom · Oct 2, 2017

amazingflapjack said:
I would like to hear the thoughts of forum members on why these large venue promoters don't have a hidden shooter to counter these attacks(?)

Simple probability. You can't protect against everything. How about a steel net to protect against an engine falling off an airliner landing at McCarran right next to the site?

And if, given the layout, a logical position for a counter-sniper team would have been .... exactly: the Mandalay, where in this case they'd have been useless.

Comes back to: You can't prepare for everything.

Bozz10mm · Oct 2, 2017

Hidden shooter wouldn't have done much good. You just can't go shooting 300 feet up in to a hotel room. Probably kill some innocents in the surrounding rooms.

muddocktor · Oct 2, 2017

I read somewhere that this type of person is a real nightmare to the Secret Service in protecting the POTUS. A lone crazy who is ready to sacrifice his life to take the shot is really hard to protect against, whether it is the POTUS or an outdoor event. I do not know what you can do at an outdoor event such as this to minimize the damage a crazy such as this one can do, but I don't see having a hidden shooter as the answer.

ContinentalOp · Oct 2, 2017

My thoughts, for whatever they're worth...

It's a matter of resources. Consider how many public events occur in Las Vegas at any given time. Consider how many vantage points from where an attack can be initiated. Consider how many variables go into threat assessments to determine how to allocate security resources. That's before we even start thinking about issues related to insurance and liability. Event promoters and venues, for the most part, try and secure their events and facilities as best they can, with the resources they have, against the most likely threats (that doesn't mean they always choose the most effective security measures, however).

Also, when it comes to threat assessments, it's all too common for law enforcement agencies and security consultants to plan for types of attacks that have already occurred, as opposed to thinking outside the box and trying to anticipate new threats. Security planning tends to be 20/20 hindsight. Before 9/11, hijacked airplanes were not considered to be weapons of mass destruction. After 9/11, that changed. How many times has a mass shooter targeted a public gathering from a hotel window? Off the top of my head, I can't think of one. And even if you did try and anticipate never-before-seen threats, how do you decide which ones to dedicate resources towards?

There are no easy answers, and no one can protect against any and all threats. It's all about probabilities and cost/benefit analyses. Where do you assign your resources for the best protection value?

On a side note...

Several years ago I had the opportunity to volunteer as part of security preparations for the soccer World Cup at the Rose Bowl. In addition to state and local LE, including some deputies from the LASO SWAT team, members of the FBI HRT were there, including sharpshooters. In that case, they determined such a heavy response capability was warranted given the international nature of the event and the likelihood of the event being targeted by terrorists.

LVSteve · Oct 2, 2017

Absalom said:
Comes back to: You can't prepare for everything.

^This. My Irish cousins had some pretty signature moves, and even then LE were unable to stop them. In a free society there is risk, we just have to live with that fact....

OR, we can go this way at large group events, including the movies...

1) Be happy wearing paper overalls, because that is what is issued at the door. You could have anything in your clothes.

2) Do the best to enjoy your cavity search. It's uglier from where we stand.

3) Bringing purses, bags, wallets your CCW? Nope, that ain't happening.

4) Leave you cellphone in the car, because otherwise we're confiscating it on the way in. Can't have you detonating bombs or calling others in the terrorist cell. Just in case, we've set up high power jammers, too.

5) We consider you ALL suspects. Get used to it.

Yes, I know I have taken this to what we normal folks consider extremes, but there are some who think that risk is to be eliminated at all costs. They would take us a good way down that road.

amazingflapjack · Oct 2, 2017

Interesting. I didn't see the topic drift. I had hope that some of the many former police-FBI-and military with combat experience would have responded. Maybe they still will.My feeling is that these promoters have been advised by their lawyers not to have any kind of counter sniper presence at these events, for all of the usual list of reasons, which, at least to me, are not credible in the war we are already well into in this country. It should be noted that high officials of all kinds have these teams deployed whenever they appear at gatherings of any size. I think that this event will be the beginning of big change in the U.S., and I don't thing that it will be good.

Watchdog · Oct 2, 2017

amazingflapjack said:
Why don't promoters have a hidden shooter to counter these attacks?

Putting it as simply as I can...and no offense intended...I'm not sure this forum has enough bandwidth available to allow me to enumerate all the reasons this would be a bad, bad idea. I won't even try.

chief38 · Oct 3, 2017

I guess Promoters think this will never happen to them - always the "other guy's concert". There is no pattern, rhyme or reason where terrorism strikes the next time. No one sees these sick acts coming and so they don't even think about prevention. This would be my guess.......

coltle6920 · Oct 3, 2017

How do you protect people from a shooter that was 1000ft (or was it 1000yds) away? LEO was lucky just to find the shooter and "minimize" the damage done.

Why don't promoters have a hidden shooter to counter these attacks?

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