Recently overheard a "Felons can legally carry black powder firearms" conversation. A quick internet search and I'm still not aware of the facts.

Some States say Yea......some nay?

__________________
triggers dog-pile egomaniacs

Back when I was working the pawn shop detail, (in Texas) I noted felons pawning black powder firearms and since they are not firearms under federal law I did not file charges. Local DA agreed.

__________________
I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

On a side note, I own two black powder revolvers and a rifle.
I have discovered why the war between the states took four years.
They had to reload! Reloading the colt navy is a pain.

Many years ago when I lived up north.Quite a few bikers I new owned and kept black powder revolver around.That kept them out of trouble when police or parole officers came visiting.

In Virginia black powder arms are considered firearms. YSMV.

__________________
Foster Positivity.

Correct. And it's often more complicated than that. Before taking any action along these lines, a person who's concerned about his legality should consult a local criminal defense lawyer about the relevant laws in his jurisdiction.

__________________
How God has blessed us!

And then there is the federal definition:

The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device.

Sounds like a blackpowder firearm is indeed a firearm.

__________________
Rule of law, not a man.

If you can order a black powder gun and have it sent right to your house instead of going through an FFL, then it is not a firearm in the eyes of the feds. If you must go through an FFL, it is considered a firearm. So, muzzle loaders are not considered a firearm. Also any bona fide antique made prior to 1898 would not be considered a firearm. My understanding is that this includes modern replicas that can not be easily converted to cased ammo. If you go to Midway USA and order a Pieta cap and ball 1851 Navy pistol, they will mail it to your house.

Here ya go-
Below, you can see a PDF of the Gun Control Act of 1968.
You can find it here- Laws on Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives


On the Page 1 is the definition of a firearm-




So, we need a definition of an "antique firearm".
That is on Page 2-


{highlights mine}

Attached Files

USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44.pdf (454.9 KB, 34 views)

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

The dead buried in huge numbers at such places as Antietam, Shiloh, and Gettysburg would regard black powder guns as firearms...

I guess modern legal terminology is at odds with that theory.

That said, I can't recall any robberies in modern times with black powder weapons. Or, with archery tackle or swords.

Maybe felons don't know about Robin Hood and his merry men? Or what my ancestors did to the French with bows at Agincourt...

here in NJ also -

Here in NY, I can order direct all the black powder handguns that I want. No PL required.
However, if I want to load them or shoot them, it then becomes something that must be listed on a pistol license.

Don’t get too lost in the “word of the law”. If you beat a person to death with a stick, you are still charged with murder.

Use a C&B revolver to rob someone and I imagine it would be considered armed robbery.

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

People should not overlook the simple fact that in addition to federal laws there are also state laws, and occasionally municipal ordinances, that may impose different restrictions. Last time I checked the Colorado law defining a "firearm" mirrors the federal law, but without the exception for "antique firearm". As I recall, Colorado law also states that the prohibition applies for ten years after conviction and/or completion of sentence (while federal law applies a permanent prohibition). My first impression is that black powder muzzleloading arms are included in the Colorado legal definition, but it is possible that there is case law that applies. If I were asked by a convicted felon I would strongly advise seeking competent legal counsel prior to possessing such items.

I'm pretty sure here in Missouri felons cannot own any type of projectile weapon right down to a " Pea Shooter"..

Here's where a person who is not familiar with law and legal research gets in trouble.
Whether it can be sent to your house or not or go thru an FFL has nothing to do with the definition of a firearm. SIGP220.45 gave the correct definition of a firearm.
Where people who are not versed in the law get confused and provide erroneous information just as above, a BP firearm is considered a firearm. What Bozz10mm is referring to is an exemption of how BP firearms can be processed. That does not take BP guns out of the classification of being a firearm, only that those type of firearms are exempt from certain FFL requirements. 2 completely separate issues. Being exempt from going thru a FFL does not mean it's not a firearm.
John Pierce does a very good job of explaining it.
The old wives' tale about black powder firearms and felons - The Law Office of John Pierce, Esq.

__________________
183rd FBINA

In NYS, convicted Felons are restricted from possessing/owning any firearm that falls under the Federal GCA68 deffinition of 'Antique'.
(As well as firearms as the GCA68 defines them of course)

So no BP muzzle loading, or pre 1899 firearms allowed for Felons.
It wasn't always so.

It wasn't till 2007 or '08 (?)that the BP muzzle loaders and felons issue had much attention in NYS.
Then a NYSP Trooper was shot by a felon using a M/L rifle. IIRC the incident was up north,,Lewis or maybe Franklin County.
That put the spotlight on the issue.
The fast acting Legislature ammended the law in 2011.
Convicted Felons had a grace period to sell, gift or otherwise dispose of their previously legally owned 'antique firearms(s)'.

Here in Utah a felon and other restricted persons can not possess a "dangerous weapon" and a black powder firearm is considered a dangerous weapon. I suspect many other states and locals have similar codes.



From Utah code
"If you are a restricted person and own a dangerous weapon that is not a gun, you can be convicted of a third degree felony. In Utah, second degree felonies carry a possible prison term of up to 15 years in prison and $10,000 in criminal fines.

(6)
(a) "Dangerous weapon" means:
(i) a firearm; or
(ii) an object that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury.
(b) The following factors are used in determining whether any object, other than a firearm, is a dangerous weapon:
(i) the location and circumstances in which the object was used or possessed;
(ii) the primary purpose for which the object was made;
(iii) the character of the wound, if any, produced by the object's unlawful use;
(iv) the manner in which the object was unlawfully used;
(v) whether the manner in which the object is used or possessed constitutes a potential imminent threat to public safety; and
(vi) the lawful purposes for which the object may be used.

__________________
Bill Bates

Black powder firearms (muzzleloaders and pre-1896 cartridge firing weapons) are not "firearms" under federal law. However, there are also state laws, and such weapons are "firearms" under Wyoming law. Thus, a convicted felon in Wyoming may not own or possess ANY firearm, including muzzle loaders, matchlocks, etc. I guess the thinking is "a gun is a gun." It sort of keeps things simple for the not-so-bright among us.

__________________
Everybody could shoot

In Virginia, if I point my finger, is that a firearm?

Might be in MA, NY, CA, etc.

I HOPE that's a joke. But I read somewhere that a kid got arrested or expelled for pointing a finger at a classmate.

Seriously, I got in trouble in about the third grade for drawing pictures of guns in class.The teacher told my parents that I might be mentally disturbed! And this was long before Political Correctness reared its head.

Obviously you did not read posts #7 and # 16.

Yes it does. Read 7 and 16.

__________________
183rd FBINA

Actually, I did read 7 and 16 and you should not presume otherwise. Obviously, you don't understand my post as it pertains to the definition of a firearm in one state and possession of same by a convicted felon under state law, not federal. Such persons may possess blackpowder firearms in some states as I understand it. They may not in the state where I practiced law for 22 years and served as a district judge for 21 more. However the feds define the term "firearm" and whether or not someone can mail it to you is utterly irrelevant for the purpose of my post. Read post #14.

__________________
Everybody could shoot

No obviously you don't understand it as you think you do. What SIGP220.45 posted is federal law. A real attorney would know that states can make state laws more restrictive than federal law but not less restrictive. If you truly knew anything about the law then you would know that federal law trumps state laws. You may have heard about that first year law school.
If you truly understood the law then you would know that whether a firearm can be mailed is totally irrelevant to the definition of a firearm. My post #16 explained about exemptions or an exception to the law. As a claimed attorney I would hope you had heard of that term. It's fairly common in legal circles. Maybe as an attorney you may have once read a statute then further along there will be another paragraph listing exceptions and exemptions. It's pretty common. An exemption does not change the definition of a firearm, only the way such firearm can be transferred. Federal law clearly defined a firearm. There is not exception to the definition. Federal law also defines how a firearm is to be transferred between individuals but they then state there is an "exception" to the transfer for certain type firearms. Not the definition of a firearm, the transfer. A REAL attorney would know what exemptions mean.

__________________
183rd FBINA

Well a friend with a federal felony conviction for years used a muzzle loading shotgun-approved by his probation officer and confirmed by the powers that be. He finally got his presidential pardon and is, as they say, good to go. Make sure you are good to go vis a vis state law though

__________________
Forum consigliere

"Black powder firearms (muzzleloaders and pre-1896 cartridge firing weapons) are not "firearms" under federal law. However, there are also state laws, and such weapons are "firearms" under Wyoming law. Thus, a convicted felon in Wyoming may not own or possess ANY firearm, including muzzle loaders, matchlocks, etc. I guess the thinking is "a gun is a gun." It sort of keeps things simple for the not-so-bright among us."


Actually Wyoming recently changed their law, allowing felons to own black powder fire arms to bring us in line with federal law. here is a link to the article. not wanting to start an argument, just figured I would post an informative update.

hopefully it will work LOL new to this.


New law gives more gun rights to felons | Powell Tribune.


That being said, every state is different.

I know two convicted felons who routinely carry/use black powder firearms for protection or hunting. One of them is a noted lawyer (no names) and the other a farmer who has two sons that are lawyers. A good friend is a retired ATF Agent and he said ATF did not consider these weapons to be firearms.

__________________
Bill

^ ^ ^ This is pretty much it. In Missouri, ATFE always ignored black powder guns. I never saw a federal charge for Felon in Possession of a Muzzle Loader in the Eastern District of Missouri, although I dealt with an AUSA who definitely woulda tried it if he thought it would fly.

Missouri's unlawful possession of a firearm specifically exempts "any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, said ammunition not being manufactured any longer; this includes any matchlock, wheel lock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type ignition system, or replica thereof;"

So, you'd get in trouble with an inline black powder rifle, or anything that can be converted with an adaptor for firing centerfire ammo.

Clearly, state laws vary significantly in this little corner of firearms law, so let's be careful out there . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

My absolute favorite thing to tell lawyers sitting my office was always "Totally agree. You are 100% correct. Turn the page . . . "

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

In Montana muzzle loaders are not considered firearms. Just like plastic knives are not considered knives or weapons, of course it is possible to kill some one with a muzzle loader or a plastic knife. The word antique is key in the federal law in removing muzzle loaders from the true definition of "Firearm"

Reading the federal law CORRECTLY; The paragraph begins "The term “firearm” means" and gives a definition then CONCLUDES with "Such term does not include an antique firearm"

NOTE "The term firearm" and the statement "Such term shall not include an antique firearm" IN other words it is an exception to what is defined as a firearm.

Therefore Federal law states that an ''antique firearm" is NOT a "firearm"

AS WYO was trying to explain to ispcapt. The Feds consider them to be antique fire arms and NOT firearms and it has nothing to do with the mail.. Illinois can call them what ever they wish.

I am certainly not a judge, but I do know they regularly tell attorneys and law enforcement that they are coloring outside the lines with their definitions and interpretations.

In 2015 a 72 year old retired New Jersey teacher was arrested for having a 250 year old flintlock pistol in the glove compartment.

New Jersey Man Faces Jail Time for Transporting an Antique Pistol | National Review

Minimum sentence at least 3 years. He was guilty. Charges were dropped based on prosecutorial discretion.

__________________
Buy American
Vote Responsibly

Only if someone pulls on it.

__________________
“Look life in its iron face”

Florida: “Firearm” means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. The term “firearm” does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.

Replicas are defined as antique firearms.

Federal Definition of Firearm from 18 USC 921
The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.


The last sentence answers the "Federal" question.

__________________
Bill

I don't know what current laws are since I retired and fled The People's Republic of California, but it used to be okay for a convicted felon or other prohibited individual to own a black powder firearm, such as a C&B revolver. They just could not have the black powder. It may have changed since I retired.

I did have a case years ago where some teenager was trying to carjack cars using a cap & ball replica of a Colt Walker. He had percussion caps on the nipples and balls in the chambers. No powder. He thought caps and balls were all he needed.

I could relate a conversation I had in 2015 with the then California Attorney General concerning antique firearms, but that would definitely get into politics.

"An antique firearm is not a firearm." Then it shouldn't be called an antique firearm, but should be an antique [something else]. The FAA classifies Ultralight flying things (generally <250#) as "vehicles" and not "Ultralight Aircraft," so wherever the regulations mention "aircraft" you know they aren't talking about Ultralights. Of course, that's too much to ask of the ATF.

And of course, an Ultralight will kill you in a crash as easily (or more) than an aircraft...

Once again an example of someone who does not understand the law when they read it, if they've actually read it.
Read the very first post in this thread. The question is about blackpowder guns. Just being a blackpowder gun does not make it an antique.
Here is the federal definition of an antique firearm. Pay close attention to what is written.
(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

It's how the firearm operates which determines if it can be classified as an antique firearm or manufactured prior to 1898. Read that part carefully enclosed with the parenthesis and maybe you'll understand the difference. BP is not the deciding factor nor is BP even mentioned, it's the ignition system is.

__________________
183rd FBINA

That part is correct. But, post #9 by Handejector includes the Federal definition of an Antique firearm and it includes replicas
That is on Page 2-
Quote:
(16) The term ‘‘antique firearm’’ means—(A) any firearm (including any firearm witha matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed am-munition, or(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is de-signed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘‘antique firearm’’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

So you are correct that Black-powder itself is not the deciding factor. Notice that nowhere did I use the term "black powder". BUT, Modern reference to a black powder gun is usually a reference to a muzzle loading rifle of pistol.

A modern 45-70 rifle carried with black-powder loads would not be considered an antique. My S&W 44 Russian even with smokeless loads would be as it was manufactured prior to the cut off date and ammunition is not readily available through normal commercial channels.

I do know how to read the law and if I have questions I simply ask my wife, the attorney.

This is not classified by the Feds as a firearm

Some STATES have more stringent definitions.

Can felons buy flare guns?

" A real attorney would know that states can make state laws more restrictive than federal law but not less restrictive."

Then making pot legal in my state isn't binding, and the feds can still arrest I assume? I just read another state is making prostitution legal too.

Gosh, Here in California guns are banned but pot is legal. Cigarettes are bad for your health but pot is legal. Wearing a face mask 5 years into a bank would be a crime, today it's normal. I believe the inmates are running our states asylum.

Not in the Eastern District of Missouri. The feds recently (within the last three years or so) prosecuted a Felon in Possession of a Flare Gun. If I can find the press release, I'll post a link . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

In this state convicted felons are restricted from the use and possession of any firearm, regardless of mode of propellant. Black powder firearms fall under a very specific ruling, if they can only be loaded from the muzzle there is no restriction to sale through the mail. If they are cap and ball revolvers that can be modified to fire modern cartridge ammuntion they must be registered, this includes all of the .36, .44 caliber revolvers that have a cylinder made for them that allows the use of a cartridge (Kurst, etc.) Recently I purchased a Ruger Old Army cap and ball revolver, the dealer let me walk out of the store just like in the old days. A couple hours later he gave me a frantic phone call and asked me very kindly if I would mind coming back down and filling out the necessary paperwork, I gladly complied. The Ruger Old Army has cylinders available that allow the use of .45 Colt which ruins its status as a black powder firearm.

In California you can get a black powder "muzzel loader" sent to your house and buy without doing any paperwork. However if it is black powder but uses a cartridge it must go through an FFL.