The Governor with 410 loads

mag318

mag318

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Winchester, Federal and Remington have all come out with 410 loads designed for revolvers. This afternoon I sampled some at the range. First up was Winchesters PDX1 410 load consisting of 3 flat discs backed by 12 copper plated BBs. Shooting at 3, 5, 7 and 10 yards the 3 flat discs grouped tightly but the BBs spread quite wide. As the range increased the discs stayed close. The BBs stayed withing a 10" circle at 3 and 5 yards but at 7 spread past the 10" circle, the BBs stayed mostly on a small silouette with perhaps 2 missing the siloutte.
The Federal load consisted of 4 000 copper plated buckshot. These loads produced one large hole at 3 yards, slightly larger at 5 yards. But even at 7 and 10 yards stayed within a 3 to 3 1/2" circle. Of the 2 loads I much prefer the Federal 000 Buck. Both would be devastating from 0 to 30 feet, but I feel the PDX1s' BBs could spread wide enough to miss a man size target and damage anything adjacent. The Federal load would stay inside a tight group plus they are much more affordable. Here's what Federals' load did to a waterjug followed by a waterjug hit with the PDX1 load. Great fun.
 

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I haven't tried out a Governor yet but have an ultralite Taurus. I found that imported shells, such as S&B and RIO gave me a lot of trouble. Very hard to load into the chambers because the hull is so swollen with tightly packed shot and they were almost impossible to extract after firing and had to be driven out. I think you're best to stick with Remington, Federal and Winchester.
 
Loco Weed, good advice, I've heard that before about foreign 410 and bargain basement 410 loads. The Federal and Winchester ammo I shot loaded and extracted very easily. I even played with Federal and Winchester game loads and again they were smooth going in and out of the cylinder.
 
I recently read a review on the Gov that cautioned against using ANY 410 loads not specifically designed for revolvers as the "shotgun" loads were tying up the cylinder.

I wonder what depth of penetration those 000 loads get in FBI-type testing?
 
I've posted several videos on You Tube titled S&W Governor Part 1 thru 4. Here's a 10 shot group at 25 yards using a sandbag rest fired with Winchester 45 Colt Cowboy loads. Though definately not a target pistol it http://youtu.be/2_iJ34EHuQsis still capable of accuracy that exceeded my expectations.
 

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Larry from Bend said:
I recently read a review on the Gov that cautioned against using ANY 410 loads not specifically designed for revolvers as the "shotgun" loads were tying up the cylinder.

I wonder what depth of penetration those 000 loads get in FBI-type testing?
Click to expand...

Saw this test a while back by Guns&Ammo, using Winchester PDX-1 (I've heard Federal penetrates more) at 30 feet, they got 12" penetration.

.410 Revolvers - Guns & Ammo

Shooting Illustrated - Winchester 13" at 6ft.

Inside the Judge

This person claims 18" penetration with the Federal loads, not sure on the distance

.410 Revolvers - Guns & Ammo
 
Larry from Bend said:
THANKS for taking the time to post this info. BuckShot penetration was better than I would have guessed.
Click to expand...

No problem, pretty interesting too because when alot of people refer to FBI tests they are talking about a single projectile penetration 12"+. I'm not sure how having three .43 caliber (winchester) or four .36 or .38 (federal) projectiles instead of one will change stopping power. I've heard some people say that 410 isn't a manstopper, kinda confusing though because Mossberg and Saiga make 410 home defense guns. I'm not sure, but personally I think that having four projectiles with the penetration tests above (i believe each projectile has the same energy as a 9mm) would have more stopping power than a 9mm for contact distance out to 30ft or so.
 
S&W360Talo357 said:
No problem, pretty interesting too because when alot of people refer to FBI tests they are talking about a single projectile penetration 12"+. I'm not sure how having three .43 caliber (winchester) or four .36 or .38 (federal) projectiles instead of one will change stopping power. I've heard some people say that 410 isn't a manstopper, kinda confusing though because Mossberg and Saiga make 410 home defense guns. I'm not sure, but personally I think that having four projectiles with the penetration tests above (i believe each projectile has the same energy as a 9mm) would have more stopping power than a 9mm for contact distance out to 30ft or so.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with you. I can't see what difference shooting someone 4 times with 1 projectile or shooting someone once with 4 projectiles would make, if the projectiles were the same. What drives me batty is that I read endlessssss posts about which is the better/best self defense bullet (hey, it has to be bonded, must cost @ least $1.50 per round, +P is a must, 124 grain is great while 147 grain is not, etc....... ) and here come Taurus --- and now S&W --- saying, aw shucks, we recommend just using a round lead ball (or 4 of them). Well, all right then!
 
Mag318, thanks for the Range Report. I've been curious about the hangun specific .410 loads, which came out just after I sold my Taurus Judge (3" chambers).

I had heard reports about the standard .410 loads tying up the cylinder but heard that this issue was specific to a certain brand, or brands, of ammo. Based on those reports I only used a (the?) brand that was supposed to work without issue and I never had my cylinder bind up. I just wish I could remember what brand I was using but the information is out there somewhere, which is how I learned about it.......

I had high hopes for my Judge, which was purchased solely as a "Critter / Yard" Gun, not hunting mind you, but as an alternative to always running to get my shotgun when an animal was where it shouldn't have been.

I got two "critters" with my Judge within two weeks of getting it but the process didn't work out as smoothly as I had expected it would and I ended up using .45 Colts out of the Judge to get the job done. A third "critter" came along about a week later, a Raccoon, and I didn't even bother to try and shoot it with the Judge. I only fired up into the air as I chased it off the porch in an effort to run it up a nearby tree, which worked. After the 'coon was treed I stood there looking up at it then back down at the Judge in my hand a few times and even though the 'coon was only about 20' away from me I opted to go in and get my shotgun.
I sold the Judge shortly thereafter........

The only reason I mention all this is that, based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend any of the .410 Revolvers for self defense unless it were used in something like a "Answering the Door" role. I'm talking close-contact distances where over penetration might be an issue, i.e. houses close to each other.

When dealing with the 2nd critter I got with the Judge I remember saying out loud to myself, during the drawn out process, "I would be better off using a Louisville Slugger." I blurted that out because for the Judge to be truly effective I had to be within about 5' or so. 10' or more wasn't cutting it unless I was using it with the .45C loads.

To be fair, Taurus was marketing the Judge, at that time at least, as a "anti-carjacking" type of handgun where the perp would be right up in your face. In that role it just might be very effective, although I could think of smaller, lighter choices for the same duty that would be more versatile.

All of my experience was with 3" shells so I have no idea how the shorter 2.5-inchers would actually perform in action and if I were ever to get another Judge, or a Governor, it would strictly be used as a "fun gun". Personally I wouldn't rely on it to save my life, although it might be up to the task in certain circumstances......
 
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ogilvyspecial said:
Mag318, thanks for the Range Report. I've been curious about the hangun specific .410 loads, which came out just after I sold my Taurus Judge (3" chambers).

I had heard reports about the standard .410 loads tying up the cylinder but heard that this issue was specific to a certain brand, or brands, of ammo. Based on those reports I only used a (the?) brand that was supposed to work without issue and I never had my cylinder bind up. I just wish I could remember what brand I was using but the information is out there somewhere, which is how I learned about it.......

I had high hopes for my Judge, which was purchased solely as a "Critter / Yard" Gun, not hunting mind you, but as an alternative to always running to get my shotgun when an animal was where it shouldn't have been.

I got two "critters" with my Judge within two weeks of getting it but the process didn't work out as smoothly as I had expected it would and I ended up using .45LC out of the Judge to get the job done. A third "critter" came along about a week later, a Raccoon, and I didn't even bother to try and shoot it with the Judge. I only fired up into the air as I chased it off the porch in an effort to run it up a nearby tree, which worked. After the 'coon was treed I stood there looking up at it then back down at the Judge in my hand a few times and even though the 'coon was only about 20' away from me I opted to go in and get my shotgun.
I sold the Judge shortly thereafter........

The only reason I mention all this is that, based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend any of the .410 Revolvers for self defense unless it were used in something like a "Answering the Door" role. I'm talking close-contact distances where over penetration might be an issue, i.e. houses close to each other.

When dealing with the 2nd critter I got with the Judge I remember saying out loud to myself, during the drawn out process, "I would be better off using a Louisville Slugger." I blurted that out because for the Judge to be truly effective I had to be within about 5' or so. 10' or more wasn't cutting it unless I was using it with the .45LC loads.

To be fair, Taurus was marketing the Judge, at that time at least, as a "anti-carjacking" type of handgun where the perp would be right up in your face. In that role it just might be very effective, although I could think of smaller, lighter choices for the same duty that would be more versatile.

All of my experience was with 3" shells so I have no idea how the shorter 2.5-inchers would actually perform in action and if I were ever to get another Judge, or a Governor, it would strictly be used as a "fun gun". Personally I wouldn't rely on it to save my life, although it might be up to the task in certain circumstances......
Click to expand...

From my range outings shooting a lot of different ammunition thru my Governor, I've concluded not only is it a fun gun but also very capable as a defense handgun. Check out my YouTube videos and see what you think. S&W Governor Part 1 - YouTube
 
mag318 said:
From my range outings shooting a lot of different ammunition thru my Governor, I've concluded not only is it a fun gun but also very capable as a defense handgun. Check out my YouTube videos and see what you think. S&W Governor Part 1 - YouTube
Click to expand...

If time permits I'll check out your vid's, with slow-speed dial up it's not a simple click & watch for me......

Mag, my opinion is based on shooting live animals, which are much smaller than people. If I were only shooting paper, water jugs, watermleons & the like my opinion may be a little different. On top of the fact that my targets were different in nature they were also dynamic, i.e. not static / stationary......

I know that the Revolver I switched to, chambered for .327 Fed Mag, has been far more effective as a "Critter / Yard" gun, even using .32 S&W Longs, than my Judge was using the 3" .410 loads. I did try different buck & game loads, although, as I alluded to in my first post, none of these shells were designed specifically for the short barrels on the Judge or Governor.

I found that to have any chance at stopping a critter with only 1 or 2 rounds out of my Judge the .45 C's were the way to go. When using a handgun for "critter duty" I generally never make "my move" to close the distance with my target until I'm within, at least, 30'-40' and try my best not to take my first shot until I half that distance. When all my chambers were loaded with .410 shells (3") I always ended up having to reload to get the job done and then I usually fell back on the .45 LC capability to do so just to make things go as quickly as possible. Your mileage may vary.

To put this into perspective, over the last 4 years I've shot 17 Raccoons, 5 'Possums & 2 Skunks. There had been more prior but I never kept track so the "sample size" I'm using gives me some idea of how effective one type of firearm & load is when compared to another for this sort of work.

Trust me, no one could have been more dissapointed than I was when The Judge didn't perform as I had expected it would. I thought I had found the perfect tool for a specific purpose. As I mentioned, at extremely close range a .410 Revolver may be highly effective, especially using the newer shells designed for just that purpose.

My goal in posting in this thread wasn't to bash the .410 Revolvers or to call into question anybody's opinion of their effectiveness. It was only to pass along my limited experience so others may have a little more information if thinking about buying a Governor.
 
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Ogilvy, I totally agree with you in that real world experience is a much better barometer. I only tested 2 410 handgun loads on paper not critters. I hate racoons by the way so keep up the good work.
 
mag318 said:
Ogilvy, I totally agree with you in that real world experience is a much better barometer. I only tested 2 410 handgun loads on paper not critters. I hate racoons by the way so keep up the good work.
Click to expand...

Mag, thank you for taking my posts in the spirit they were intended. :)

The only photo (see below) I've ever taken of the critters I've dealt with had to do with The Judge, and I only did so because, when it was all said & done, it seemed like such a major accomplishment.
That was the night I made the "Louisville Slugger" comment to myself.

I cropped out the head portion to remove the graphic aspect of what the .45C did.

398084391.jpg


I was out in the yard that night with the Judge in a Merlin Fanny Pack when I heard glass breaking from behind the house, which turned out to be an Ornament in one of my wife's flower gardens. When I slowly cleared the corner of the house I lit up the area with my flashlight.

I usually rely on a night vision monocular when investigating which allows me to sneak up on critters in the dark, critters (4 or 2 legged) that I know are out there already because they've tripped at least one of the 12 wireless, passive infra-red sensors that I have around the property.

When I lit up the area that night I already had the Judge out so I was able to quickly snap off a shot, of 000 buck I think it was, at about 15'. Possums are tough so it didn't surprise me that this one made a bee-line for a nearby barn and while it was doing so I was able to get another shot off from about 8' as I was running along-side of it.

The Possum went into the back side of the barn and since there was no door handy for me to enter I looked through the area where one of the boards was missing, which is how it made it in there, and seen that it was no more than 10-12' away, still upright but moving slowly (probably due to my first shots). It was from this distance, 10-12', that I fired my 3 remaining rounds. Those hits, and I'm sure I had to hit it at least twice, seemed to have little to no effect, at least it didn't go down after each shot, which, after watching for a few seconds, forced me to fire again. On my re-load I decided to go with the .45 C's I had in my ammo pouch and not any more of the .410's. One shot with the .45 did the trick.....

In all fairness, Possums are some tough critters that can take a lot of punishment, although one body shot from a 20 ga. (2 3/4" 1 oz. #4's) is usually very effective, even "at distance."
 
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An oft overlooked aspect of Governor ownership. Think of it as a bit longer version of the 325 Night Guard, which weighs ~1.8 oz more. Same Al/Sc construction, tritium front Night Sight/fixed rear, a fraction of an inch longer barrel, same thickness at the cylinder, moonclip .45 ACP/GAP ready, etc - at a street price over $300 less? Oh yeah, it also chambers .45 Schoffield, .45 Colt, and 2.5" .410's.

Boy, ogilvyspecial, night vision monocular, chasing possums, emptying your Judge included - I'll bet Halloween will be pretty lonely at your abode! (TIC)

Stainz
 
Great Thread!!!

S&W360Talo357 said:
No problem, pretty interesting too because when alot of people refer to FBI tests they are talking about a single projectile penetration 12"+. I'm not sure how having three .43 caliber (winchester) or four .36 or .38 (federal) projectiles instead of one will change stopping power. I've heard some people say that 410 isn't a manstopper, kinda confusing though because Mossberg and Saiga make 410 home defense guns. I'm not sure, but personally I think that having four projectiles with the penetration tests above (i believe each projectile has the same energy as a 9mm) would have more stopping power than a 9mm for contact distance out to 30ft or so.
Click to expand...

The main importance of the four 000 Buckshot vs. a single light weight round, say a 9mm, is in the spreading around of the wound tracks. More potential of internal damage that the system has to accommodate- neurologically as well as systemically. Penetration with the Federal .410 load is certainly adequate, and multiply those .36 balls banking off of bone, tearing through veins and arteries, to say nothing of tearing-up muscles and organs... A surgical team could well have their hands full... Imagine two or more such loads being "dumped" into a torso, limb, or head... True, I'd prefer the magazine capacity of my G21's and G30's, but I'm going to put those in "cold storage," and carry two of my new Governors...

Gentlemen, your threads have already changed my intended load-outs. Thank-you, one and all...

OA, out...
 
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Since my previous posts in this thread I came across a used Governor
and it now resides in my Merlin Fanny Pack doing yard duty, which
means I'm givin' this .410 Revolver "thing" one more try.

The last 10 Raccoons that have been taken out of here over the last 3 months
have all been live-trapped so The Governor hasn't been tested............yet. :cool:
 
Came to laud Federal's .410 Handgun load in 2-1/2" 000 buck (out of a shotgun).

Stayed to consider the evidence that the same load penetrates effectively out of a snubby barrel beyond point-blank distances; still not convinced, but don't think it's a gimmick, either.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm

Left glumly pondering blasting critters who are neither game nor predator.

Not judging, to each their own, just not getting it...
 
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Hapworth said:
Left glumly pondering blasting critters who are neither game nor predator.

Not judging, to each their own, just not getting it...
Click to expand...

I did the live & let live thing (over 20 yr's) until the 3rd time our roof had to be fixed,
which was due to a Raccoon that I caught in the act after it had made it through the
shingles & was working on the roof boards when I shot it off of the roof with a Glock 26.
The two previous "roof jobs" required some live trapping in our attic before the roof
could even be dealt with. Have you ever seen what two full grown Raccoons
can do to attic insulation while engaged in a fight. Unfortunately I have......:o

In the not too distant past, another 'coon got in a bucket truck (boom type) and
severely damaged the wiring while trying to make a den, which wasn't cheap to fix.

In another case, a skunk had our yard looking like a convention of squirrels
got called out of "the building" while they were right in the middle of a "nut burying" contest.
Now we spray for grubs every year so the skunks, hopefully, won't come around.

If an animal behaves itself around here it gets a free pass, if it doesn't, the gloves come off.

The Possum pictured in this thread was up on the back porch and knocked off
one of my wife's decorative displays and broke it, which is when it crossed the line.

In spite of all that I'm still trying my best to work with "them," but, I've found that
when they start "coming in close" that things only go downhill from there.
 
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