Military Discipline

Chubbs103 said:

Kanewpadle,
I have one brief statement to make, then I am out. My point of the avatar was that mkk41 is/was not an officer, but an enlisted aircrewman. What I read (as well as a little arrogance) was frustration faced by someone who worked hard for their NEC/designator/MOS only to see the symbols of their accomplishments lessened. Just because someone works WITH PJs, for example, does not entitle them to wear a maroon beret.

Chubbs

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The point being he specifically said GOLD WINGS.

"The Naval Aviator Insignia is a warfare qualification of the United States military that is awarded to those aviators of the United States Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard who have qualified as Naval Aviators. The Naval Aviator insignia is identical for all three branches, as are the similar Naval Astronaut and Naval Flight Officer badges. Naval Aviation Pilots were awarded the Naval Aviation Pilot badge which, while considered a separate award, was identical in design to the Naval Aviator badge.[5] The all-gold badge was designed by John H. Towers c1917, and consists of a single fouled anchor, surmounted by a shield with 13 stripes, centered on a pair of wings.

To qualify for the Naval Aviator insignia, a service member must have completed flight training and be designated a qualified pilot of a military aircraft. Traditionally, Student Naval Aviators are awarded "soft wings" immediately after the completion of their final training flight. These soft wings are typically gold-leaf impressions on leather patches that Velcro to the flight suit. The official Naval Aviator insignia are later awarded at a "winging" ceremony."

The guys in the back shucking sonobuoys down the tube are not commonly pilots.

As with so many things, the Ideal is that elusive "Golden Mean". I recall one old NCO who said the Army started to go downhill when fatigues became a dress uniform, and in my day a "garrittrooper" was someone who always appeared in starched and tailored fatigues-all badged up, of course-with spitshined boots, often an ascot or sunglasses, but was never seen in the field, the motor pool, on guard duty or KP, and who seemed to do no work whatsoever.
Many of the disciplinary problems with today's military are due to poor leadership and officers concerned solely with their careers, from too many people who enlisted for the family benefits, and from PCness and having privileged and exempt groups and double and triple standards.

jdh said:

The point being he specifically said GOLD WINGS.

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That is exactly the color of the enlisted aircrew insignia to which I was referring from the avatar.

I was really not trying to start an argument. As I admitted, I was jumping into a fight that wasn't mine. I was getting the impression that people felt that mkk41's post was the comment of an elitist officer, when it is actually coming from one of the guys in back for which you are standing up.

Chubbs

jdh said:

BRAVO SIERRA

You are telling us the ECOs in the bowels of the EA-6B or the many crew members of the AWACS, JSTARS, or any of those type aircraft are not important enough to be given the limited protection from fire the nomex flight suit provides? Or do aircraft fires only occur in the cockpit? I'm sure the fight crews running the electronic systems that keep you safe up there really appreciate your arrogance.

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No, he specifically mentioned "aircrewmen", which I understood to take into account anyone performing a job on the aircraft.

As far as Kanewpaddle's comment, the umbrage against that was that he made a crack about "true officer" comments when the commenter wasn't an officer. That kind of oversight tends to steal the power from one's argument.

If his comments were taken incorrectly then I apologize. There are many different MOSs that ride in the back. Intelligence types being amongst them.

Let me say this then I am done with this one. Of all the Naval Aviators I have had dealings with the P3 drivers were the most down to earth and accessible. The comments made sounded like they came straight from the the lips of the topgun types.

jdh said:

The point being he specifically said GOLD WINGS.

"The Naval Aviator Insignia is a warfare qualification of the United States military that is awarded to those aviators of the United States Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard who have qualified as Naval Aviators. The Naval Aviator insignia is identical for all three branches, as are the similar Naval Astronaut and Naval Flight Officer badges. Naval Aviation Pilots were awarded the Naval Aviation Pilot badge which, while considered a separate award, was identical in design to the Naval Aviator badge.[5] The all-gold badge was designed by John H. Towers c1917, and consists of a single fouled anchor, surmounted by a shield with 13 stripes, centered on a pair of wings.

To qualify for the Naval Aviator insignia, a service member must have completed flight training and be designated a qualified pilot of a military aircraft. Traditionally, Student Naval Aviators are awarded "soft wings" immediately after the completion of their final training flight. These soft wings are typically gold-leaf impressions on leather patches that Velcro to the flight suit. The official Naval Aviator insignia are later awarded at a "winging" ceremony."

The guys in the back shucking sonobuoys down the tube are not commonly pilots.

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If you read my post again , you will see that I specifically included Pilots , NFOs or Naval Flight Officers , and that includes ECOs , EWOs, RIOs , TACCOs , Bombardiers , Navigators and Enlisted Aircrew. They all wear gold wings. Not the tin Air Warfare wings , which don't mean nothing.

But as was pointed out , my frustration is because in the Naval Aviation community , especially the squadron level , the flight crew only wore flightsuits. Yes , maintenance personal often wore old ones as coveralls and that's no problem. But Intel or Admin types wearing the flight bag as a daily uniform , no way. Ground-pounders also shouldn't wear flight jackets (leather or Nomex) as daily uniforms.

The Rangers didn't really like it when the whole Army started wearing black berets.
REMFs didn't wear 'tigerstripes'.

Chubbs103 said:

Kanewpadle,
I have one brief statement to make, then I am out. My point of the avatar was that mkk41 is/was not an officer, but an enlisted aircrewman. What I read (as well as a little arrogance) was frustration faced by someone who worked hard for their NEC/designator/MOS only to see the symbols of their accomplishments lessened. Just because someone works WITH PJs, for example, does not entitle them to wear a maroon beret.

Chubbs

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Thanks Chubbs , that's exactly my point.

Sometimes uniform appearance must give way to practical business.

I was stationed at an Air Force Base in South Dakota. For those not familiar with the seasonal cycles in the United States, it can get quite cold in this part of the country between November and March.

Well, we still have to obey the regulations regarding "Blues Monday" where all troops in non-maintenance or dirty work jobs have to come to work in office attire. Well and good for the folks in the Pentagon and in states where it doesn't snow 20 inches in one night and the wind chill isn't negative 15 degrees. Walking through a foot of snow wearing dress uniforms in that weather only proves the stupidity of higher ranking people believing discipline is something determined by the color of the uniform you wear.

Nothing wrong with military bearing or instilling unit cohesion, but there needs to be a level of common sense on the matter. As far as discipline issues goes, there will always be the "Airman Snuffys" of the world who make everyone in eyeshot wonder how the he** he made it past Basic. Wait long enough and some "Airman Snuffys" make it to be "Colonel Snuffy".

jdh said:

If his comments were taken incorrectly then I apologize. There are many different MOSs that ride in the back. Intelligence types being amongst them.

Let me say this then I am done with this one. Of all the Naval Aviators I have had dealings with the P3 drivers were the most down to earth and accessible. The comments made sounded like they came straight from the the lips of the topgun types.

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I was an Aviation Ordnanceman , an Aircrewman on P-3s. Never said I was a pilot. And Aircrewmen are not passengers riding in the back. We have specific functions as part of a combat aircrew. We are AWARDED our Gold Wings after aircrew candidate training ( Naval Air Crew Candidate School (NACCS) ) and becoming 'qualified' in our particular aircraft.

Yes , the flight suit , flight jacket and wings are all symbols of accomplishment within the aviation community.

I saw your Army tab. How would you feel if you were a Ranger or Paratrooper of even Green Beret , and all of a sudden , the women in your unit (admin/intel/supply) started wearing the black/maroon/green 'blanket' because they looked cute?

mkk41 said:

I was an Aviation Ordnanceman , an Aircrewman on P-3s. Never said I was a pilot. And Aircrewmen are not passengers riding in the back. We have specific functions as part of a combat aircrew. We are AWARDED our Gold Wings after aircrew candidate training ( Naval Air Crew Candidate School (NACCS) ) and becoming 'qualified' in our particular aircraft.

Yes , the flight suit , flight jacket and wings are all symbols of accomplishment within the aviation community.

I saw your Army tab. How would you feel if you were a Ranger or Paratrooper of even Green Beret , and all of a sudden , the women in your unit (admin/intel/supply) started wearing the black/maroon/green 'blanket' because they looked cute?

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Wait a minute while I ask her.

Honey, how did I feel when the women in the unit started wearing the Pocket Rocket?

Did you hear what she said?

"WE earned just like the boys did!"

mkk41 said:

NO , No , no!

The flight suit is NOT a uniform! It's protective gear (nomex) and should not be worn by anyone except for 'gold wing' wearing aircrews (pilots , NFOs , aircrewmen) on active flight status and the 'ready' crew. A non-aviator wearing a flightbag is just more gender blind , fem-coddling , PC bullcrap!

Unless you have EARNED the right to wear GOLD WINGS , you DO NOT have the right to wear a flight suit or flight jacket.

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Well - she was an Ensign when she reported for duty. She figured it would be the best idea follow the Squadron Commander's orders. Oh - the male intel. Officers wore them too.
I suggest you contact Secretary of the Navy. I sure he would value your opinion.

I am going to take a wild guess that you don't like the idea of "girls" in the military.

I was a USNR-type, and got called up for active duty in 1969. Having been on the station's drill team, and on a drill team in Army JROTC in high school, I did know how to square away a uniform. When I arrived at my duty station with the Seabees, I was flabbergasted with the uniform regs in the battalions. Most guys looked like they slept in their utilities. As soon as I got mine, they went to the tailor shop for fitting. I chucked both pairs of oil treated steel toed boots, and bought two pairs of black Corcoran jump boots. Since I wasn't in the construction end, I was determined to look decent. I was noticed by public affairs, and interviewed with them for a position on the Seabee Drill Team. It took two-and-a-half months for my chit to be approved, but I was sent to the permanent rear echelon. During the interim, I spent time at Camp Lejeune at "crew-served weapons for dummies", and at Camp Allen, VA, for counter-insurgency training. When I got back to the battalion, the XO had approved the chit over four disapprovals, and I spent the rest of active duty being squared away.

We did funerals, parades, and all kinds of official Seabee functions in New England (Seabee base at Davisville). Boots were spit shined bottom to top, and we protected them with Johnson's Glo Coat wax. Blues and whites were tailored, and we stood inspection daily. Hair cuts every week; high and tight. Our covers were washed, starched, baked in an oven, and the creases were ironed in to get the right look.

In those days travel was in the uniform of the day. You never traveled in civvies. Today, I'm still amazed that travel is allowed in utilities. Weird.

I don't think the Marines have changed that much....You deon't spitshine boots any more, probably a good idea, as spitshined boots don't breath in the field....The utility uniform has become more combat friendly. I don't think they hit you in boot camp anymore but from what I have seen the only boot camp harder on a recruit is the French Forign Legion. I have never seen a Marine on liberty or in travel status in camo's. The Marines have been around for a long time and seem to get it right more times than not......Semper Fi USMC circa 1956

I enlisted in the USN in 1972. I spent most of my four years in the engine rooms of a carrier(USS Saratoga) and a DE(USS Thomas C. Hart). My work uniforms/Dungarees/Utilities were always pretty filthy and no amount of washing would get all the oil and grease out of them. So, I never even considered wanting to wear any of those off the base. It wasn't allowed anyway.

I was very motivated when I went in. I was in HS NJROTC for 5 years and was a Sea Cadet for 4 years. My father was a retired CPO. He enlisted in 1932 and was a veteran of the Battle of the Atlantic. My plan was to make the service a career. After boot camp and A School, I went to my first duty station and was very disappointed. Dicipline was very poor. Drugs and thievery were rampant. Many of the other sailors were slobs and had longer hair and facial hair. Morale was poor and there were a good many people who didn't want to be there. I served one enlistment and got out.

I admit that I don't get the blue camo that I see USN personnel wearing these days. Appropriate camo makes sense when people are serving in theaters where that fits. What is the purpose of the blue? It seems to me that perhaps the camo is more stylish?

My experience is that I am impressed with the behavior and appearance of most of the military personnel I encounter these days. I live in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia so I see lots of such folks all the time. I don't see any evidence that things have gone down hill. Us older types seem inclinded to revert to the thinking that things were better "in my day"...My experience is that the USN was a fairly sorry organization back in the early 70's when I was in. I think these young folks derserve a lot of respect. There are always borderline people in every large organization.

Personal discipline

The best thing to ever happen to me (except getting married) was to get my butt kicked USMC style. They taught me and demanded of me top performance to include high standards of personal care and bearing. A clean uniform everyday, polished shoes/boots, haircut (it drives my wife nuts I still wear my hair short), blousing a shirt (old habits never die), and without hesitation I say "Sir" or "Ma'am" in social settings. It's the right thing to do. Respect elders, mentor younger folks. All in all it made me a better person and paid dividends in my senior years where health has unfortunately become my "incoming" experi-
ence. I stand up even though I have fallen down; chin up when the chips are down. Improvise, Adapt, Overcome means a lot to me. One thing I cannot say or do is "I quit" -- it just doesn't happen regardless of the situation or challenge. Kinda nice to be old and monolithic in mind and body.
-sevensix

I served aboard the USS Franklin D Roosevelt CVA 42 in the engineroom, generator and pump rooms. Try standing a 4 hour watch on the upper level of the pump room when the ambient temp is 140 Degrees. Your nice clean dungarees and chambray shirt are soaked even your shoes. We used to save our shall we say used uniforms as "steamers" because they really looked like **** when sweat soaked and sometimes spotted with lube oil. But when it was time to stand inspection or liberty our uniforms were 4/0. Frizzman, well remember the USS Saratoga,I was in 64to 67 active at mayport and she was moored next to us. And we had our share of people with drugs and other issues back then. We almost sunk the honey wagon that used to tie up at the fantail to collect the garbage. One guy had an old boiler feed pump shaft to get rid of. Tied off on a rope, the knot slipped and speared itself in the wooded deck. Man was that guy ticked off, didn't know an irate Italian could talk so fast. Frank

It's taken me a while to adjust to seeing troops in BDUs and wearing cover indoors. It's even got hard now for me to tell which branch they are in.
All I can say is they are most polite and thankful when I thank them for their service. I never once heard that when I was in the service in or our of uniform in the 1970s. I'm trying hard that the ones I see can never say that.

I enlisted in 1966 2 months out of high school. We were issued 3 pair of fatigues, 3 sets of 1505 (tans) and set or summer class A dress uniform and a wool winter set of class A and the Horse Blanket over coat also mad of wool. Foot wear was 1 pair of jump boots, 1 pair of chukka boots and a pair oxfords. and of course underwear, socks, and handkerchiefs and a sewing kit. I was a Air Policeman for my first year, We set the example for the rest of the base in our appearance. starched fatigues spit polished boots close tight haircuts. A class A past was needed to leave the base. The fatigues were allowed to be worn to and from the base with no stops allowed. We were SAC trained Killers, The nuclear arm of the USAF. After I was forced to retrain out of the Sky cops. I continued to wear a clean pressed uniform to work, If I learned anything in t sky cops it was pride in my uniform. After my trip to Viet Nam and until I retired I did not wear a uniform out post because of the way I was treated when I returned from Viet Nam.

On post uniforms were clean pressed, I was squared away. As an NCO I required my airman to maintain there uniforms and appearances according to the air force standards. I tried to establish pride in my airmen, how the looked and how they preformed their duties. I had some really good troops and a few not so sharp. But I would have gone into combat with any of them.

squidsix said:

You never could wear dungarees off base, or the utility uniform that followed it.

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Somewhere around 1970, we were allowed to wear dungarees to and from work on base. (Admiral Zumwalt was CNO) But I would no more have thought of wearing sloppy dungarees than I would have thought of trying to fly one of our A-7s. My Seafarers were always ironed inside out, my chambray shirts had a crease right on the edge of the crow almost sharp enough to cut you and both were so heavily starched they would almost stand by themselves. Even though they got cut up and scraped working on aircraft, my "boondockers" were shined and buffed every day. I guess that comes from being an Army brat and knowing how to lay out a uniform/spit shine shoes for inspection when I was about 6. I do remember that even when wearing dungarees from home to the base, we still had to wear a white hat and switch to ball cap at the hanger.

CW

Having been associated from '76 to date with the Army-you are correct-Patreus, Bde. COs of the 172nd, 173rd, and a host of other Generals-arrested, relieved-
As for Field Grade Officers on down-some of the finest, toughest combat troops ever fielded-I remember a Captain in the advanced course standing in up an describing the sorry state of infantry troops-
(in '82) The few of us who had just finished command pretty much threatened to beat him-and told him he should never be trusted with soldiers-We understood that we were responsible for our troops day,night-around the clock-and we trained them as if we were war lords-My son just finished leading a bunch of these terrorists hunters-and I'm proud that they consider me a friend.