My bad MP15 S&W experience

growr said:

This also has the appearance of a round fired out of battery....rare and hard to do but it can and does happen with any manufacturer AR-15 platform rifle.

Too bad you cannot be more specific on what was fired and what lot it came from....that would be very valuable information.

Randy

PS. I would ask Kate about the condition of the barrel and any other parts and see if a replacement upper receiver and bolt might be in order. Your lower seems fine...no need to replace everything.

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Firing pin cannot touch/engage the primer until the bolt lugs have locked. Firing out of battery is out of the question. Most people who claim an out of battery shot actually have a case head seperation from an improperly or non annealed case head.

Seen this happen with pistol powder in a rifle round. Figure out where the ammo came from and demand a refund check. The fact that you had to manually cycle the case really suggests a squib as it didnt have enough pressure to cycle the action. Very strange indeed......

My apologies to the OP, it sure would be nice to know about the round. Firing out of batter could cause this but that would be the ammo's fault for having a faulty primer, but it blew the barrel extension up and bent the bolt so the bolt would have had to be locked into the lugs for that to happen.

This thread puts a little damper on my otherwise complete satisfaction with S&W. What if I fire nothing but Remington or Freedom Munitions ammo and have a similar issue? I'm sure the ammo manufacturer would throw it back to S&W and vice versa. A frustrating never ending loop for the gun owner.

I have fired very few rounds but so far so good. I do find it odd that the OP was not able to give more info about the ammo used. S&W seems VERY sure of their position. Only the OP has a clue as to whether or not there was any chance of over pressured, reloads or other possible ammo issues except that S&W has the spent cartridge I believe.

If it was fired out of battery, that would be a recoil issue right? Couldn't that be the result of under pressure? And in any event, would out of battery be an ammo issue or a gun failure?

According to the OP, S&W says it was confirmed as an ammo issue.
So why not return the gun and the spent casing to the OP as he requested? It is after all HIS property now. Not S&W's

Personally, Im also very curious as to why S&W won't respond to the OP or provide the requested report? That seems to show little good faith.

Would it be a good idea to have a weapon that experiences a failure of this type examined by a local gunsmith or metallurgist BEFORE sending it back to S&W? Maybe the costs would be too great?

I'm a noob so please forgive me. But it sounds like there is a failure on both sides here.

And lst thing...How is offering to sell the OP another weapon at higher than you can get that weapon from Bud's etc helping the OP or showing "Good Faith" ? But... If the weapon did in fact fail due to a bad load, then I don't blame S&W at all for their position.

I'm so confused

I dont understand why everyone is pissed @ S&W. It's not their fault the weapon blew up. Their customer service is geared towards fixing problems they themselves caused, not other people. That stands with any company. There was a vid of a guy blowing up his buddies M&P sport, and he did everything to blame the rifle and the materials and the workmanship, and what was the problem? A squib. The ammo company covered the rifle. Figure out what/who's round you shot and get on the horn with them. Raise holy hell and let us know what happens.

In fact this reminds me of a guitar a guy brought in to a music shop I worked at as an associate. He forgot to slack the strings before taking it on a commercial flight. At 30000 ft the top ripped off the guitar. He tried to file a warranty claim with Ovation and they politely responded no. Guess who got to break the news? He called me a #@$@#$@ for calmly explaining to him that there was no way the manufacturer was to blame, raged and then stormed out cursing.

Direct your anger and rage at this incident at the proper parties and lets pray it gets resolved.

If it fired out of battery it would have launched the bolt back through the rear of the receiver and maybe even out of the back of the buffer tube. I do not understand S&W's deal with not returning it and the shell. But I would figure out who's ammo it was and go after them. Maybe S&W is doing that, it is hard to tell. But back to the ammo storage. Even in the military we didnt store ammo loose in a bin. It is possible to damage it when stored that way. Just maybe the casing got a little bent causing the bullet not to come out straight but I think you would have seen that when loading the ammo. Maybe the round was older than the hills and had a serious case rupture. I generally load to the upper end of the spectrum and I know there is no way to double charge a 2.23/5.56 with any of the powders I have used. It is all speculation on our part so there is just no telling.

p.s. I wondered about pistol powder!!

Okay so if its an ammo issue, why cant I get an answer when I ask to get the casing and the lab report? If its only an ammo issue why when I reject the offer of them keeping my weapon and me purchasing a completely new weapon do they stop communicating? Thats what I want to know. They were quick to respond when they were trying to get more money out of me. Now that I request it back with the casing and report I can barely get a response and the response I get is only that they will ship the weapon back but they wont say if they are sending the casing or the lab report. It sounds pretty shady to me.

Splittiebus66 said:

I dont understand why everyone is pissed @ S&W. It's not their fault the weapon blew up. Their customer service is geared towards fixing problems they themselves caused, not other people. That stands with any company. There was a vid of a guy blowing up his buddies M&P sport, and he did everything to blame the rifle and the materials and the workmanship, and what was the problem? A squib. The ammo company covered the rifle. Figure out what/who's round you shot and get on the horn with them. Raise holy hell and let us know what happens.

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+1

First and foremost, I'm glad the OP is unharmed. While frustrating, a rifle can be replaced. A hand can not. Thank god his hand is ok.

S&W confirmed that the cause of the catastrophic failure was the ammo. Just because it's a factory round, does not mean that it's absolutely perfect.

The OP admits to unboxing ammo and mixing them up loose in a can. Store ammo in whatever way floats your boat. Just realize that when you throw out that box, you throw out all the information needed to file a damage claim with the ammo manufacturer.

He now has no idea who manufactured the faulty ammo and the production lot number of the faulty ammo. Since the rounds are all mixed up randomly in a can, he can not separate ammo from the suspected defective lot. The entire contents of the ammo can are now suspect.

If an ammo manufacturer ever issues a recall, the OP has no way to identify the recalled ammo for replacement.

IMO, S&W customer service was generous to offer him a replacement firearm at dealer cost.

The only thing I will ding S&W customer service on is not returning the OP's broken rifle. It belongs to him, not S&W. If he wants it back, they should send it back.

out of battery

So you are saying that it is impossible to have an AR-15 fire out of battery?

Randy

Splittiebus66 said:

Firing pin cannot touch/engage the primer until the bolt lugs have locked. Firing out of battery is out of the question. Most people who claim an out of battery shot actually have a case head seperation from an improperly or non annealed case head.

Seen this happen with pistol powder in a rifle round. Figure out where the ammo came from and demand a refund check. The fact that you had to manually cycle the case really suggests a squib as it didnt have enough pressure to cycle the action. Very strange indeed......

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Growr...it is very difficult, about the only way is with an extremely faulty primer.

gsochallenger....the following is posted on some rifle websites:

DEFECTIVE AMMUNITION WARNING

It has come to our attention that the Federal/Lake City (LC) XM193 ammunition currently available on the commercial market is displaying severe quality control issues. There have been numerous cases of overpressure and primer issues. The overpressure is severe enough to cause gas ring blow outs and extraction difficulties. Primers have been reported to fall out and jam lower receiver components.

If nothing else a reason to know what ammo you are shooting is in case of an ammunition recall. Ammunition is explosive and as such should be treated with a little more caution. I know it takes up more room but I keep my factory ammo in the boxes it came in and my reloads in MTM Case-Guard plastic cases. My wife is still trying to figure out somewhere for me to store all of my stuff in our little house but she accepts it as it is.

oneyeopn said:

Growr...it is very difficult, about the only way is with an extremely faulty primer.

gsochallenger....the following is posted on some rifle websites:

DEFECTIVE AMMUNITION WARNING

It has come to our attention that the Federal/Lake City (LC) XM193 ammunition currently available on the commercial market is displaying severe quality control issues. There have been numerous cases of overpressure and primer issues. The overpressure is severe enough to cause gas ring blow outs and extraction difficulties. Primers have been reported to fall out and jam lower receiver components.

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You gotta be kidding me. I just received 500 rounds of that ammo that I bought from Natchez. I wonder if I can send it back?

Edit - I spoke to Natchez and he assured me that if the ammo that they had in their store had issues, they would have received a call from Federal. He was confident that my ammo was o.k., but he gave me a phone number for Federal. I called them and left a message. I hope that I can verify that my ammo is o.k.

blackdeuce said:

You gotta be kidding me. I just received 500 rounds of that ammo that I bought from Natchez. I wonder if I can send it back?

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Unless Federal issues a specific lot number recall, probably not.

I'd just keep the ammo in the box. If a round of ammo damages your rifle, you'll have what you need to file a claim with the ammo manufacturer.

You'll have the box with the production lot number. You'll also have the remaining rounds. If there was a production line flaw, the remaining rounds in the box could also be defective which would prove your claim.

The key is to keep factory ammo in the factory box. Only throw out the box when you've shot the entire box of ammo.

JaPes said:

Unless Federal issues a specific lot number recall, probably not.

I'd just keep the ammo in the box. If a round of ammo damages your rifle, you'll have what you need to file a claim with the ammo manufacturer.

You'll have the box with the production lot number. You'll also have the remaining rounds. If there was a production line flaw, the remaining rounds in the box could also be defective which would prove your claim.

The key is to keep factory ammo in the factory box. Only throw out the box when you've shot the entire box of ammo.

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Good idea. I'll do that.

I searched the web, and the only warning that I found was dated back to February and it was on a forum, so I can't say that it was actually true. As quickly as ammo sells, I doubt I have anything from that period of time, anyway.

I also checked Federal's website and they do list product warnings. The XM193 doesn't have a current warning.

Federal Premium - Product Warnings

FYI this is how these situations can go when you have your "ducks lined up in a row". It's also a good illustration why it's actually rather smart to know exactly what you are shooting at all times. Even if that means that you store it neatly stacked in a closet in the original packaging.

So, Dudly Doright has his brand new AR-15 blow up in his hands. Due to his granite jaw and his heavy leather gauntlets there aren't any injuries, however his AR-15 looks exactly like yours.

However, when he gets home he contacts both the manufacturer of the firearm and the maker of the ammunition. With the firearm manufacturer he starts the process with sending them pictures of the damage. He also sends those same pictures to the manufacturer of the ammunition he was shooting along with the Lot Code for that particular box of ammo. Next he sends the rifle to the manufacturer and waits for a response. He also informs the ammo manufacturer of what is being done with his damaged rifle. Once the analysis is complete the rifle manufacturer rules the cause was an overpressure round of ammo and documents this on their letterhead. Dudley then sends a copy of this report to the ammo manufacturer and waits to hear from them. Because they have been kept in the loop they get back to Dudley pretty quickly and it's good news for Dudley. What they tell him is to purchase that replacement rifle and they will cut him a check for the complete and total cost of that new rifle and any shipping or transfer fees.

About a month later and well after he has been made completely "whole" Dudley reads in a firearms publication that Fireball ammo has issued a recall for ammunition with the corresponding lot codes and request that anyone with any of their ammo on hand to check the lot codes before using it. The reason for this recall is that some of the ammunition may be loaded to create an overpressure potential and anyone with an effected lot can return that ammunition for an exchange of newly manufactured ammo that is not effected by this recall. BTW, back around 2010 Federal did a recall exactly like this example on some 45ACP because of a users experience with an overpressure round.

So, I'll leave it up to you to decide. Do you want to keep thowing your ammo into a bucket and have no recourse if your gun blows up or do you now realise that knowing what you are shooting at all times is actually a good idea? Bottomline, S&W didn't blow your rifle up, whoever made that casing is who is responsible. Unfurtunately without knowing who even made that round it's a bit difficult to try and get some compensation for your blown up gun. I'll also tell you right now that without the exact lot code for that cartridge you are probably tilting at windmills, ammo manufacturers tend to like having data that is directly traceable to the date and location of manufacture and they also like to see a sales reciept for the ammo in question.

WELL stated!

Randy

OMG pure comedy...."What kind of ammo were you shooting....." has been asked about 1000 times in this thread and we've got no response....Federal...Remington....PMC.....Winchester....etc.....4 or 5 kinds there's really not that many brands out there.......

hd28cw said:

OMG pure comedy...."What kind of ammo were you shooting....." has been asked about 1000 times in this thread and we've got no response....Federal...Remington....PMC.....Winchester....etc.....4 or 5 kinds there's really not that many brands out there.......

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Well, the OP did state why he doesn't know so asking won't help:


and then...

OP states 1st round stuck in chamber so he manually ejected it. Could the 1st round have been stuck because it was a high pressure round that may have damaged the receiver and the 2nd round was a high pressure round that finished it off.

The gas flow on that KB is really interesting.
Bolt is locked, barrel extension appear undamaged, yet the bolt carrier and right side of upper receiver are toast.
5th pic down looks like rolled brass caught between carrier and upper.
gsochallenger, you wouldn't happen to be able to post a pic of the magazine that was in the rifle?

I have a question, how soon after the explosion, I would call it that anyway, were the pictures taken. If you look closely the bolt is still locked into the lugs. There is appears to be a little swelling of the gas tube but the blow out started where the gas comes back into Bolt Carrier. The bolt carrier blew out causing the upper receiver to blow out also. From the pictures I can see no damage to the barrel extension but the extractor is blown out from the bolt so there has to be some damage to the barrel extension, it has to be an over-pressurization coming back the gas tube. Had you disassembled it and cleaned it before you fired it. I don't see much for lubrication and am wondering what you used for lube. I do notice the cam pin is blown straight up and it doesn't look like the bolt even tried to turn to come out of battery This is weird and S&W may not have been able to remove the suspect case without destroying some more of the rifle. This is strange!

Gunslinger...KB?