Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?

So if we don't call it stopping power, what do we call it?

Call it something you can actually measure. In the posts above, there are various formulae for differing measures of energy. Measure kinetic energy, momentum, penetration in a standard medium, etc. Stopping power simply cannot be measured. It is far too subjective a term.
 
...three guys conducting a home invasion shot the homeowner 6 times in the chest with a .38 special. He chased them off with a baseball bat and then called an ambulance. The bullets all stuck in his pectoral muscles and didn't make it to blood bearing organs, major vessels, or the cns. He survived to testify just fine, even though all 6 rounds dumped ALL of their energy into his body.

I'd like to know several things. For one, the type of ammo he was hit with. Second, barrel length(s). Third, the range at which he was hit. And finally, how the subdivided hell did he develop such incredible pecs?
 
I'd like to know several things. For one, the type of ammo he was hit with. Second, barrel length(s). Third, the range at which he was hit. And finally, how the subdivided hell did he develop such incredible pecs?

He was hit at arms length, from a Detective Special. They were using 148 grain wadcutters! Not the smartest of folk. The victim was a railroad worker and was in pretty good shape.
 
Sometimes everything works different

I might have said this before.

I was once discussing rapid fire with 6 inch barrel 38 special with a friend. I was impressed with the tight groups my model 19 shot rapid fire with 38 specials.

My co-worker friend had been on the Los Angeles Police Dept. He laughed and commented that wherever the first shot hit they all were going to hit, with a 6 inch barrel revolver in rapid fire.

He continued on telling me about an incident when he was on LAPD. His partner had gone in a liquor store to buy a pack of cigarettes and walked up behind an armed robbery in progress. To make a long story shorter the would be robber spun around and shot his partner in the chest with a 32. This was before bullet proof vests (late 1960s ?). The 32 bullet did not penetrate his partners sternum, but did knock him out. His partner said it felt like the whole room focused onto his chest. He was out cold on the floor. As my friend ran in the front door the would be robber ran for the back door. Finding it locked he spun around pointing his 32, but my friend was already shooting rapid fire. All shots missed in a tight group over the robbers left shoulder. Robber was standing totally paralyzed. Friend said he walked up and took the gun from his hand.

Two people totally incapacitated with only minor injury. The 32 bullet had gone about 4 inches downward just under his partners skin from the forward angle of his crouch and draw position. Very minor surgery to remove it from under the skin.

So the 32 was a one shot stop. We will never know just how many of the six shots that missed would have tilted-out the bad guys brain. Maybe the first one? Maybe all six?
(For those not familiar with pin ball machine language the “tilt” is the “total shutdown” that occurs when you hit the machine too hard with palm of hand trying to influence the travel of the ball).
 
The 2 inch barrel thing

Well, no one can measure "stopping power" since it does not exist. In order to kill, a bullet does it's work by exsanguination or central nervous system disruption. Period. "Stopping power" is a myth. A bullet that stays in its target but does not cause massive bleeding/cns disruption is worthless. A bullet that goes right through the target, yet causes massive hemorrhaging or destroys the cns will work fine.

I was involved in a case in Chicago in the early 80's where three guys conducting a home invasion shot the homeowner 6 times in the chest with a .38 special. He chased them off with a baseball bat and then called an ambulance. The bullets all stuck in his pectoral muscles and didn't make it to blood bearing organs, major vessels, or the cns. He survived to testify just fine, even though all 6 rounds dumped ALL of their energy into his body.

Don't buy in to "stopping power." There is no such animal.

Hmmm… In your next post after this one you mention it was two inch barrel and 148 grain target wadcutter.

My old Speer reloading manual number nine, first printing in 1974, third printing 1976, has some factory bullet chronograph charts on page 434.

6 inch barrel is the only listing for a hollow base wadcutter (no other wadcutters listed).
6 inch barrel, Ammo Brands S-R-F-W Chronographed at 725 to 748.

Now the lead semi wadcutter (SWCL) brand S (Speer no doubt) came out of a 6 inch barrel at 868 velocity. Brand W came out at 970 velocity. (Exactly the area we would expect).
Out of a 2 inch barrel the brand S in 158 grain SWCL was chronographed at 742.

(So I would expect a 148 grain target wadcutter from a 2 inch barrel to be over 100 feet per second slower than from a 6 inch. Maybe 650 feet per second?) (Read third paragraph again).

I must note that muscles are not the only thing that grows with heavy lifting. The tendons that connect the muscle to the bone also grow. The bones also grow. And the ligament that connects bones to other bones grows, with heavy lifting.

So I completely believe the above post. Target loads designed for mid 700 fps in 6 inch barrels not advisable in 2 inch for defense.

This same page lists a Speer 140 grain jacketed bullet coming out of a 2 inch barrel at 892 fps.
The manual warns against loading up the Hollow Base Wadcutter because the bullet can deform (in Flash gap I assume).

My Chiefs Specials are loaded with 2 factory 158 gr round nose lead (sorta easy on the ears & penetrate well), then 3 (ear splitting) 110 gr silvertip hollow points behind them (if needed).
 
Recently I was at a homicide where a rather large fellow was hit once with a .380 in the left collar-bone. The bullet deflected downward into his chest cavity and tore out the top of his heart. He died immediately.

When it comes to bullets, there really is no "one best," and as it has been said repeatedly, shot placement is key.

Handguns are notoriously poor man stoppers, but they sure beat trying to punch a guy.
 
Nauseum

If the criminal was dressed in animal hide similar to a traditional northern Alaska or Canada or Siberian Eskimo, then the heavier 38 special bullet would be more likely to be successful than a itty bitty .380 bullet.

In Southern California I assume a .380 would be adequate for skinny people wearing thin clothing.

Or, a 95 grain bullet is a bit light.

In the early military trials that led to the adoption of the 1911 45 auto, which included shooting cadavers and live stockyard animals, several basics were concluded.
(Or so I read)
An adequate military pistol bullet should be at least 40 caliber, at least 200 grains, and travel at least 800 feet per second. They chose to exceed all those minimums.

Police tests over the years concluded the 158 grain 38 special bullet to be the best inside our cities.

In much of Europe where the citizens have no or few guns, and hoodlums normally fight with knives, the 9mm short A.K.A. (also known as) .380 has usually been the police weapon, for many many years.
 
History

(Military bullets)
Up to and including World War one, horses, and Calvary saber charges were a reality. Like in the Civil War a Calvary charge would involve first revolvers then switching to sabers.
Being able to shoot the enemies horse was a big deal. It was logical for the early pre 1911 45 auto pistol trials to include shooting stockyard animals.

(Police Bullets)
In our cities penetrating vehicles was a growing issue. Later the safety glass in the windshield was the limit that ended speculation of a 200 grain police 38 special bullet. Policemen loved the 158 grain 38 specials, but demanded the .357 after it became available about 1935. They were repeatedly turned down by most city politicians. The 38 special with 6 inch barrel was very common up to about the 1960’s. It’s main problem was drawing it from a sitting position particularly from inside a vehicle. The clamshell holster that sprung open mechanically when a button was pushed inside trigger guard was favored for awhile. Still the long barrel would often hit the steering wheel in an attempted fast draw. Similar to gamblers of old west drawing around a card table and loosing the contest when long barrel hit the table.
Eventually the 4 inch 38 special in a high-rise belt holster became the norm. In a sitting position it could be drawn straight up from the waist.

For the perfect house gun the 6 inch 38 special with 158 grain bullet is probably still the best. And it points nice in a dark room. A painted glow in the dark ridge down the top of the barrel would be nice. Very nice to be able to move a relatively heavy bullet over 900 feet per second without using a lighter/shorter bullet with more powder, noise, flash, and recoil behind it.

One article claimed that in World War 2 photo’s of General Patton he faced the cameras with his left side slightly forward when wearing his pistols. On his left was his trademark long barrel Colt 45 single action.
General Patton's Pistols - Colt 45 and SW 357
On his right side in an identical holster was a shorter S&W .357 magnum that was only obvious to a close observer. He was and expert in pistols and considered the .357 his “killing gun”.
(Ignore his .380s at bottom of the above page).
 
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More History

The ultimate handgun expert. General Patton.

The 1912 Summer Olympics games in Stockholm,...

In addition to serving in World War I as tank-driving Colonel and in World War II as a badass General who wore a Colt .45 revolver on his hip, George S. Patton was an early American modern pentathlete. He finished 4th in fencing and 6th in equestrian but got 20th place in shooting, a true cavalry man. He finished the modern pentathlon in 5th place.
.................
(Okay, I admit he was before hollow point jacketed bullets were invented/perfected).
(I think he would have carried a Chiefs Special as a back up gun if they were available back in his time?) (But in wars, having lots of magazines full of bullets is sorta nice).
 
Can a 38 special revolver be excessively accurate?

Is the .38 special excessively accurate.?
Was pentathlete Patton robbed of Olympic medal? | Sports | Modesto Bee

Published: March 23, 2013
By Joe Cortez, Modesto Bee

(This article is a few months old)
(Starting a few paragraphs down)
U.S. Army Gen. George S. Patton competed in the 1912 Olympics in Stockholm, Sweden. And if not for Patton's famous bravado, he might have brought home a medal.
As it were, he finished fifth.

According to legend, Patton used his .38-caliber sidearm instead of the standard .22-caliber in the shooting portion of the competition. The holes in the target created by the .38-caliber rounds were so big that some of Patton's later shots passed right through the same holes. But the judges ruled those shots had missed the target completely.

Helen Patton, the general's granddaughter, was the keynote speaker during opening ceremonies at the Pentathlon World Cup in Palm Springs in February.
 
One of Patton's guns that he often carried was a Colt .32 auto wasn't
it? The .32 acp was a widely used police cartridge in Europe along with
the .380 acp. It's hard to compare the .380 to the 38 spl without any
reference to the guns they are used in. Maybe the answer for the
individual is which one he or she can shoot the best.
 
Depends

One of Patton's guns that he often carried was a Colt .32 auto wasn't
it? The .32 acp was a widely used police cartridge in Europe along with
the .380 acp. It's hard to compare the .380 to the 38 spl without any
reference to the guns they are used in. Maybe the answer for the
individual is which one he or she can shoot the best.

Depends on if a war is going on at the time. Or whether or not one is on the front lines.

I doubt General Patton carried any large handguns when on American soil. Or when on any relatively peaceful American base in another country. Like when he was in England.

Conversely he probably did not carry a 32 as his primary handgun when crashing through Italy during WW2. Or in the North African Desert fighting Rommel.
 
The problem, as stated has a flaw. You have to consider the launching platform, especially when dealing with multiple aggressors. With the .38 Special you are limited to 5 or 6 shots, the .380 7 to 15 rounds, but the large capacity autos are fairly large and not in production, to my knowledge.
Bulk and size being equal, I go with the 9x19mm 115 gr HP.
Geoff
Who has a .380 LCP, a .38 Special M-38 a 9mm Kahr 9094n or a SWaMPy 9c, which is favored when confronted by gangs in Escalades but hard to conceal in the land of shorts and shirts.
 
Water yards with swamp water

The problem, as stated has a flaw. You have to consider the launching platform, especially when dealing with multiple aggressors. With the .38 Special you are limited to 5 or 6 shots, the .380 7 to 15 rounds, but the large capacity autos are fairly large and not in production, to my knowledge.
Bulk and size being equal, I go with the 9x19mm 115 gr HP.
Geoff
Who has a .380 LCP, a .38 Special M-38 a 9mm Kahr 9094n or a SWaMPy 9c, which is favored when confronted by gangs in Escalades but hard to conceal in the land of shorts and shirts.

Hmm... You are in Florida.

Naturally you want a 9mm in Florida with lots of anti gang loads. (Unless it is a gang of “children” under 18 years old. In which case it is easier to hand them your wallet and let them beat you because their criminal history will not be allowed in court and few of us can afford Zimmerman’s lawyers)

But is any pistol much good against an alligator or a giant snake or sharks?

And I hear the mosquitoes in Florida will argue whether they should eat you there or drag you off to the swamp.

If you ride a bicycle in Florida you can outrun the mosquitoes and can walk along the rivers with it between you and the endangered alligators.

Last night the TV said the ocean was rising in Florida. I do not want to go to any state where the ocean is rising. (When that happened in Long Beach California in the 1960’s they began pumping a barrel of water back down for every barrel of oil pumped up).

In Florida they also have those sink holes that swallow people and even houses. Maybe it is time to cap the water wells and start drinking the swamp water?.

(I am going to go back to bed and get up again on the other side).
 
Sometimes a bigger gun is needed

Sometimes a 380 pistol is not enough gun (and neither is a 38 special). Florida has Alligators and Lake Tahoe California has Big Bears. One Bear had a 44 mag bounce off his head.

700 lb. Bear Terrorizes Tahoe
Behemoth bruin terrorizes Incline Village homes
Peter Fimrite, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, January 10, 2010 700 lb. Bear Terrorizes Tahoe :: SuperTopo Rock Climbing Discussion Topic


August 16, 2010
Near Lake Tahoe There's a Bear So Tough, Bullets Bounce Off His Head
'Bubba' Is Blamed for at Least 50 Home Invasions and His Crime Spree Isn't Over
Near Lake Tahoe There's a Bear So Tough, Bullets Bounce Off His Head - WSJ.com
 
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