3rd gen DAO guys, please step inside.

18DAI

18DAI

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I've never been a fan of DAO pistols. I always viewed them as a crutch for inadequate firearms training. One consistant trigger pull = easier to teach rookies to shoot adequately. Rather than teach them fundementals of trigger control and to shoot well.

I'm reevaluating my thoughts on DAO 3rd gen guns. The last revolver I qualified with and carried on and off duty was a 3 inch 13-3 rendered DAO with a slick trigger job and spurless hammer. A sweet shooting carry gun. Since I've never shot revolvers in any other manner than DA, I didn't give it much thought.

Now I'm looking at the 39XX series DAO pistols. Thin - VERY thin. Slick slides and they handle like a CCO type pistol, for me.

The trigger pulls on the two I've dry fired were very nice indeed. I'm wondering if they get even better with use, like a revolver?

Educate me on the 3953/3954 type guns. Why did you choose them for carry? What advantage is the DAO gun over the TDA version? Any problems associated with these pistols? Same 3rd gen reliability and accuracy as the TDA guns? Thanks! Regards 18DAI
 
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I like DA because of its consistently. They all feel the same, at least to me. It makes it easier to pick one up and shoot where as the traditional DA/SA triggers are always different in DA mode. If I pick up any two identical guns and dry fire in DA mode one will always be heavier pull then the other. I've had 59XX and 45XX where one was lighter than the other. I don't like that. Have to get used to a different trigger pull for the first shot. It's the same with CZ and Beretta and any other DA/SA.

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NOOOOOO!!!! Don't start saying nice things about the 3900 series DAO pistols! I know where there is a clean 3953 for a good price. I have been able to resist it due to my preference for the TDA 3913.

I did own a 4586 for a while (remember the $259 Newport News VA trade-in pistols Bud's blew out a few years ago?) and thought the trigger pull was decent, but nothing as nice as a slick slide "D" series Beretta.

The flatness of the pistols is quite attractive I must admit.

I'll just sit here in the corner and cover my eyes while you guys continue the conversation.

Stay Safe.
 
Very interesting topic. I look forward to the input here as I too am becoming somewhat interested in DAO. Never had one, never even fired one but the 3954 that was the subject of a very recent thread caught my attention.

Also, I'd like to 2nd Arik's observation on the difference between the DA trigger pull on two similar guns. I have a 4506 no dash and a 4516-2 and there is a BIG difference in them. I prefer the 4506. True, one is a full size and the other compact, but in my opinion they really should be pretty close to being the same.
 
Funny you should mention the 4586. To date, that is the only DAO 3rd gen pistol I've shot.

Some years ago member Stillwater788 met me at an IDPA match. He was shooting a 4586 and extolling its virtues. He loaned me that gun for a couple of weeks to try it out.

As I recall I found it to be as accurate as my 4566 and just as reliable. The problem was I didn't shoot it as fast and accurately as a 4566. I found the trigger pull to be long. Probaly related to what Arik was pointing out above. Maybe some DAO variants have a slightly different pull among the various calibers/models.

IIRC member KurtC always favored the earlier production DAO triggers over the later variants. I think he taught us that the earlier production guns had a shorter smoother pull by virtue of pre or half cocking the hammers. I hope he sees this thread and responds. What he has forgotten about the DAO guns I will never even know. :) Regards 18DAI
 
The original DAO pistols from the early 90's had short, sweet trigger pulls. Damn near single action. This was because S&W was making a proprietary slide and frame for the DAO models that extended further to the rear, covering the cocked hammer. These pistols can be identified by a round firing pin retainer.

In the late '90s, starting with the TSW rail models, they began using standard frames and slides to save money. These can be idientified by an odd shaped firing pin retainer, the same shape as a safety. The drawback to this is the original 3/4 cocked hammer looked like a cocked pistol with no safety. The lowered the hammer to a 1/2 cock, which looked more presentable. It also gives a slightly longer pull. It is still better than the DA pull on a DA/SA model.

There were also a limited number of compact 9mm's made for a police contract that had full stroke DAO triggers. These had double strike capability.
 
Thank you KurtC !! :)

Nice to see you here. So, would an early production, 1991 vintage 3953/3954 be equipped with the better trigger? Thanks again! Best regards, 18DAI
 
There were also a limited number of compact 9mm's made for a police contract that had full stroke DAO triggers. These had double strike capability.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the 3914DAO made for the NYPD.
 
18DAI said:
Thank you KurtC !! :)

Nice to see you here. So, would an early production, 1991 vintage 3953/3954 be equipped with the better trigger? Thanks again! Best regards, 18DAI
Click to expand...

Yes, it would. I think the TSW rail models didn't come out until 1995. As a side note, there were a few pre-rail models that used the TSW moniker. These still had the early style triggers and hammers.
 
18DAI, I was the PFI for years when I was working. I oversaw the transition from CS-1's to the 6906. I never considered any of the guys inadequately trained and we had some very good shooters, but even when the results were minor, you could see inconsistency between that first DA pull, and the follow up single actions. And the one problem I saw was guys forgetting to work the hammer drop (never called it a safety) before holstering. I had one guy who consistently carried with the hammer drop down, so he had to raise it up to engage. He would not break from that habit. (I had a personally owned 457 that Smith retrofitted with a spring in the hammer drop so that it would automatically return to position after dropping the hammer. Wish I had that back!)

We used to shoot bowling pins, and most of the time that first shot would be a miss, and then hits with all of the follow ups. I think the DA/DA trigger just simply lends itself to inconsistency.

Personally, I went from a 1006 to a 1086 when I was carrying the 10. Picture that smooth trigger pull as just rolling your finger through the action. Very nice. And there was never that silly hammer drop to fool with.

Yes, I also had a 3953 for years. For some reason, though, it had a longer trigger pull (probably just my perception) than the 1086, and the only reason I don't still have the 3953 is that an XDS came along. I really like that little pistol.
 
All of my 3rd. gens. are TDA.....that's what I cut my teeth on and got used to .....I do wish they had the decocker return function though.....I also never had the opportunity to use or handle a DAO and just (wrongly) presumed that platform was just like the DA pull on my TDA's.....but over the past weekend I met a guy at the local gun show that was an armorer for S&W,H&k, Glock...and one other make that I can't recall...and did CCW classes....we got in a discussion about this very topic and he let me inspect his personal carry weapon to experience his DAO on the H&K;)...it appeared that the hammer was in the half cock position and the pull to fire was sweet...if the earlier 3rd. gen DAO guns are similar to that H&K..than I can see why you guys prefer them.....H&k's were never on my radar till now:eek:
 
That second strike is a nice feature to have.

But being trained continuously in the tap rack clearing drill, its sort of ingrained in me.

So lack of a second strike doesn't really present any problem, to me.

Those 3914DAO's are nice pistols. The folks who are offering them on Gunbroker seem right proud of them. ;)

If a used one without the Houlton ME laser etching came along.......... :) Regards 18DAI
 
I think that the one that is listed there currently is for sale by one of the NYPD authorized FFLs. The list price was in the $700.00 area when they were selling them to officers. I don't know if they are still authorized for purchase or not. Maybe someone can offer and opinion.

At that price, given the option, I'd have one of my 3913s converted either by the factory or a gunsmith. That's provided the parts were still available. :(



18DAI said:
That second strike is a nice feature to have.

But being trained continuously in the tap rack clearing drill, its sort of ingrained in me.

So lack of a second strike doesn't really present any problem, to me.

Those 3914DAO's are nice pistols. The folks who are offering them on Gunbroker seem right proud of them. ;)

If a used one without the Houlton ME laser etching came along.......... :) Regards 18DAI
Click to expand...
 
Really?

18DAI said:
I've never been a fan of DAO pistols. I always viewed them as a crutch for inadequate firearms training.
Click to expand...

Shooting DA all the time a crutch? Not sure I buy into that. Shooting a DAO auto is just the same as shooting a DA revolver the way it was intended, and to be good at it requires loads of practice, just the opposite, in my opinion, of inadequate firearms training, or am I missing something in that statement?

I view shooting a traditional DA auto, after the first shot, as more of a crutch - if you will - more akin to cocking a revolver for each shot (SA), as I see MOST shooters doing. As for training, that is bad practice in my opinion (shooting a defensive revolver SA that is).

As for the first Third Gen DAO models, I have not met one that I did not like, all that I own are virtually smooth and consistent from shot to shot. And the M4586 is probably the best of the bunch, tough to beat the full size .45 DAO autos, with the M4586 being a personal favorite.
 
For the fine stuff....

For technique, I shoot my revolver, single action.

I have a double action 3rd gen because my family isn't as meticulous as I am about knowing exactly how a semi auto works. Besides, I like it. I wouldn't mind having a single action semi auto, but unfortunately I can't have everything. :(


BTW mine is a 5943. There is no 'manual of arms, or decockers/safeties. Put in the mag, rack and shoot. Good weight for a carry gun with the aluminum frame.
 
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The NYPD has nothing to do with the sale of off duty guns. If you find an FFL with a 3914DAO for sale there is really no good reason they couldn't sell it to you. Happy hunting!
 
10mmauto - Thanks for the info! I have the decock only feature on my 4513TSW and 4566. I'd love to find some decock only parts for my 457.

I hope you will post in the revolver section about your experience with the CS1. :) We would love to learn more about those revolvers.

SmithNut - Perhaps "crutch" was a poor choice on my part. Better to say that from an LE perspective, I think the DAO guns were an administrators solution to a non-existant problem. Fear of lawsuits, reduced training budgets and a reduction in recruits with any firearms experience (as the gun culture in this country became demonized) led to DAO pistols and subsequently the striker fired plastic guns, IMO.

I always have heard ad nauseum, from self described "experts", that a "consistant trigger pull" is easier to teach. I have not found that to always be the case. But I did come up being trained to fire revolvers. Always in DA.

Perhaps others not so trained would have more difficulty shooting DAO semi auto's. Dunno.....

nocents - I have quite a few HK's. ;) Sweet pistols. You are doomed to own a few. Were I back in an urban jurisdiction kicking doors, I would have my HK USP 45 in my holster. The HK LEM is similar......but not quite the same as the S&W 3rd gen DAO trigger pull, in my experience. All my HK's are TDA. The only tupperware guns worth owning IMO. :)

Regards 18DAI
 
18DAI said:
nocents - I have quite a few HK's. ;) Sweet pistols. You are doomed to own a few. Were I back in an urban jurisdiction kicking doors, I would have my HK USP 45 in my holster. The HK LEM is similar......but not quite the same as the S&W 3rd gen DAO trigger pull, in my experience. All my HK's are TDA. The only tupperware guns worth owning IMO. :)

Regards 18DAI
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, I actually like my HK trigger better than the DAO 3rd Gen pull. I have the LEM on my P2000 and I love the light initial pull, coupled with that very distinct final short pull, it works very well and keeps the gun on target better than even a DAO S&W 3rd Gen.

But even with LEM on my H&K, I have the same theme as my DAO Smiths. One consistent trigger pull for each shot, that's what I like in my carry guns.
 
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