DESK BOUND COMMANDOS:
Every Agency has them. They usually have the newest equipment and vehicles while the "Street Troops" make do with what comes down from Headquarters when the "Administrators" receive new issue.
FBI's new 9mm ammo
- Thread starter shawn mccarver
- Start date
DESK BOUND COMMANDOS:
Every Agency has them. They usually have the newest equipment and vehicles while the "Street Troops" make do with what comes down from Headquarters when the "Administrators" receive new issue.
Doug M.
Member
The .40 ammo order was not for DOJ, but DHS. While in a rifle class with an FBI FI, we discussed their sidearms a bit. I did not get the impression that he was impressed with their gear and training, but he had been a real cop before and so he had a clue.
He generally recommended the authorized option (personal weapon, approved) of a G21. (Dunno if the 30 is approved; didn't think to ask.) The .45ACP is a lot easier to shoot. He had a Glock in .40, and it was not adequately reliable IMHO. It malfed a few times, as their reputation has been (a friend's agency is dealing with that now; several have been hit with crummy performance from their .40s). I suspect Glock will give them one heck of a deal, probably trading one for one on pistols and mags. The gear would not change, of course.
Remember that the purported ammo problems of the Miami shootout are almost 30 years ago, and we have gone through a lot of performance improvement in the generations of ammo since.
He generally recommended the authorized option (personal weapon, approved) of a G21. (Dunno if the 30 is approved; didn't think to ask.) The .45ACP is a lot easier to shoot. He had a Glock in .40, and it was not adequately reliable IMHO. It malfed a few times, as their reputation has been (a friend's agency is dealing with that now; several have been hit with crummy performance from their .40s). I suspect Glock will give them one heck of a deal, probably trading one for one on pistols and mags. The gear would not change, of course.
Remember that the purported ammo problems of the Miami shootout are almost 30 years ago, and we have gone through a lot of performance improvement in the generations of ammo since.
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Many agencies got suckered into believing that the 147JHP subsonic was great just because the FBI chose to go with load. Most people didn't (and still don't) realize that this round was designed for suppressed SMG's (MP5) and was never designed as a defensive handgun load.
Hi:
In 1962 when I entered Law Enforcement three Agencies that was held in high esteem was the FBI, U.S. Border Patrol, and LAPD. Most Agencies accepted their opinions of weapons, equipment, and training. In that era the FBI had training school for Police Department in different regions. I was sent to one such school in my region. I showed up with a Colt .38 Revolver and a cross draw holster. WOW, I received instant schooling in cross draw holsters are a "NO, NO" and Smith and Wesson Revolvers are a better choice as a sidearm. After the school I went to a Smith and Wesson Revolver in a Jordan style border Patrol holster.
In 1962 when I entered Law Enforcement three Agencies that was held in high esteem was the FBI, U.S. Border Patrol, and LAPD. Most Agencies accepted their opinions of weapons, equipment, and training. In that era the FBI had training school for Police Department in different regions. I was sent to one such school in my region. I showed up with a Colt .38 Revolver and a cross draw holster. WOW, I received instant schooling in cross draw holsters are a "NO, NO" and Smith and Wesson Revolvers are a better choice as a sidearm. After the school I went to a Smith and Wesson Revolver in a Jordan style border Patrol holster.
Mike Grasso
Member
The poster actually meant a "Type (class) 3 Malfunction".
Commonly known as a "Double Feed".
It occurs when the original casing is not ejected properly and the weapon tries to load another cartridge from the magazine, attempting to have the two cartridges occupy the same space.
The drill to clear it is quite involved and is usually handled by going to your BUG.
Currently the FBI is testing the S&W M&P 9mms, several Instructors made a trip out here and spent some time with us since we dropped Glocks in favor of the M&P.
Doug M.
Member
Actually, Mike, my recollection is that what NYPD called a "phase 3" is not the same as a "type 3" (double feed). I won't swear to it. It's kind of odd, in that the only place this seems to have been a documented problem with G19 was with NYPD, and they had a hell of a time with it. Glock had to bring a mobile facility to the range to work on the pistols and they went through several efforts at repairing it. My old Gen 2 17, and my 19L worked up by Don Ellis have never done such as I recall.
Pat Rogers has described the experience and the events around it a few times. He's a member here but I almost never see him show up.
Pat Rogers has described the experience and the events around it a few times. He's a member here but I almost never see him show up.
"accidental" discharges with a 9 lbs. DAO trigger ...."
Now, how in the world does that happen?
Maybe someone needs a desk job?
Now, how in the world does that happen?
Maybe someone needs a desk job?
Maybe alcohol induced
Mike Grasso
Member
In the Glock, the Phase / Type / Class 3 Malfunction, is still a double feed.
The spent casing, without enough "power" to eject fully, stays in the weapon as the new round is stripped from the magazine.
The casing, still stuck in the extractor, rides forward over the new round and lodges firmly on the bbl hood.
As you've stated, I too have never seen it repeated. Oh well.
Attachments
Bingo. Of course, NYPD supposedly would have none of the "it's the Indian & not the arrow" pep talk and threw a hissy fit according to industry insiders at the time as well as threatened to drop Glock like an ugly blind date. Obviously, Glock was not wanting to lose a huge contract like that with lots of PR factor, so they "powdered" the baby's bottom. It was in the Gen 2 G19's which came out in '88.
I've owned a couple of the Gen 2 G19's and had a similar problem with one using weak Win. WB ammo back in the day. Solution: changed to better (hotter) ammo and the issue was resolved. Many fail to remember that when Glock first hit the U.S. shore in early '86 the Gen 1 G17 had an 18 or 19 lbs. RSA that was made for European NATO spec ammo and not watered down U.S. range fodder. As well, the first lots had a really tight spec chamber and some Fed. American Eagle I had wouldn't chamber. Again, tight Teutonic specs vs. sloppy U.S. specs. They opened the chamber specs as a result. The RSA nowadays is rated 17 lbs. for the G17.
Yorkie Man
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If the FBI has the funds to purchase new weapons every few years then the budget need to be readjusted, downward. There is no reason for any agency to need new weapons so often. This is one of the reasons this country is in the fiscal shape we are in.
Doug M.
Member
I doubt very much they are paying much if anything for the pistols. Major manufacturers do a lot of special deals to get major LE agencies to use their weapons. Also, depending on the platform and training level, a 10 year service life could be a lot to expect. (AFAIK, FBI does not shoot at that level.)
monroe
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By staffing the rank and file using Affirmative Action standards?
Doug M.
Member
Bad training and no performance standards for trainees or trainers. I've seen plenty of window lickers in both groups.
I have a lot of time dealing with the FBI locally and how they get anything done is beyond me. Its a bloated, antiquated, self-serving bureaucracy with the exception of some exceptional individuals. Hanging around the FBI Academy for six courses two weeks a crack gave me good behind the scenes look at the paper jungle.
I vividly recall how the 147 sub-sonic was all the rage circa 1991 when we went to Glocks. I was not convinced and was proven right when two officers were nearly killed because of the pitiful 147 subsonic. We went right to Glock .40's with Gold Dot 165gr.
I have some very strong opinions about the FBI ammo testing protocol and the Miami shootout that created it. I feel the FBI management could not admit their training and tactics were ***** so the Win Silver Tip became the scapegoat.
What puzzles me is the reverence the FBI ammo tests get. I'm even more puzzled (actually I'm not) why the FBI refuses to incorporate the Border Patrol's desired changes to the testing protocol. The average Border Patrol officer has a far greater chance of a deadly force incident than any FBI agent. I'm sure the BP has more shootings too but these stats for the FBI are impossible to find via Google.
It boils down the arrogant attitude that's ingrained within the FBI. They know what's best for those lowly street cops and Border Patrol officers who just operate off locker room rumor. As one new FBI recruit told me, "I'm with the FBI, the premier law enforcement agency in the world". Whatever...
I vividly recall how the 147 sub-sonic was all the rage circa 1991 when we went to Glocks. I was not convinced and was proven right when two officers were nearly killed because of the pitiful 147 subsonic. We went right to Glock .40's with Gold Dot 165gr.
I have some very strong opinions about the FBI ammo testing protocol and the Miami shootout that created it. I feel the FBI management could not admit their training and tactics were ***** so the Win Silver Tip became the scapegoat.
What puzzles me is the reverence the FBI ammo tests get. I'm even more puzzled (actually I'm not) why the FBI refuses to incorporate the Border Patrol's desired changes to the testing protocol. The average Border Patrol officer has a far greater chance of a deadly force incident than any FBI agent. I'm sure the BP has more shootings too but these stats for the FBI are impossible to find via Google.
It boils down the arrogant attitude that's ingrained within the FBI. They know what's best for those lowly street cops and Border Patrol officers who just operate off locker room rumor. As one new FBI recruit told me, "I'm with the FBI, the premier law enforcement agency in the world". Whatever...
