Plastic and Pot Metal

I bought one of those plastic .22s the OP mentioned about 6 years ago, a S&W MP 15-22. I paid $450 when they were first released. Have recently seen them advertised at Palmetto for as low as $299 on sale.

I've put over 40,000 rounds through it since new. A great deal of it CCI SV for suppressed shooting. Maybe an average of $20+ a brick all told. 80 bricks X $20 = $1,600. I bought a rimfire can that was about $600 after tax stamp which is worth about nothing used. An optic and others things about $200 or so.

If I'd only known I could have saved $100 by waiting 6 years....

Arik said:

If I buy a fancy gun with fancy wood I'm not going to use it! Why would I risk damaging it? A fake wood or even better...plastic. ..I can use it and not be afraid to knock it around some. If I don't use it then I just wasted money. If I want art I'll buy a statue or a painting. If I want a firearm I'll buy a gun and not an heirloom. What's this fascination with passing stuff down? I can pass down a modern gun too. They don't have a expiration dates. Wood grips on a gun? Not if I'm going to shoot it and use,it in its intention. If I'm not using it then why did I waste money on it?

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Dang Arik, we are worlds apart on the firearms we own and desire. I have several guns with fancy walnut stocks, a few that are very fancy french walnut and that deep blue that goes with them. Even have some gold inlay on a few. They are everyone shooters and I hunt with them. The fulling engraved Pre 64 338 is a true work of art. Its been all over the mountains of WY looking for Elk and even been in the Alabama woods chasing white tail deer. No safe queens at this house. Because they are nice high grade guns, it keeps me shooting them and hunting in the woods on nice days, carrying them, the shotguns the same, old classic double barrels with very fancy walnut and deep bluing, out chasing quail and pheasant and shooting a few sporting clays and enjoying ownership and usage.

The heirloom stuff, no way for a yankee to understand the southern rebel pride of family guns given to the next generation, My grandfather, the old turkey hunter, passed away a long time before I was born. My dad got his old double barrel and that's the only shotgun he ever owned and he killed a lot of turkey in his life. I have carried the old L C Smith several morning but have not taken a Tom with it yet and last year my son carried it several morning. 4 generations of hunting with the same gun. And then the old Model 90 Win in 22 Short that dad used that I took my first game with at age 9, still here and I plan on letting my grandson shoot and carry his grandfathers 22. And my son has my dads 30-06 deer rifle. I have no idea how to express in words you would understand what this mean to me and my family.

We are worlds apart, so go enjoy you glock and you can sell it next year at the pawn shop. To each his own, but this love of nice looking firearms and the memories they bring has kept me interested in shooting and guns my entire life. I am a sentimental old fool, but you can add happy to that, a happy sentimental old fool. I have actually sat on rocks with that old L C Smith on days the turkeys would not cooperate and though " I wonder if my grandfather could have actually sat here 105-110 years ago with this very same gun and tried to call a turkey?" All I know is there is a smile on my lips and a song in my heart when I put those guns back in the safe when I return home. I wish somehow I could share that feeling with you because there is noting like it on earth.

What you mean my Remington Nylon 66 IS PLASTIC!!!!!!!!!!

No I get it I just don't get it.

I agree that some are beautiful but that's not the point of them, at least not to me. I treat and use my guns more in a military way as opposed to a hunter who keeps the rifle in a sock inside a case on the way to the tree to sit and wait for a deer. I wouldn't say I beat my rifles to a pulp but I don't baby them. Tools and all.

Since one rifle can be used for both types of shooting if I have to baby it it's not for me. A gun, like a car is a means to an end. I need a car to drive to work, I need a gun to defend myself if need be. Shooting a AR or a Glock feels no different to me then shooting some old, classic blued and steel relic. Look down the sight, pull the trigger. Not sure how else to explain that.

I think handbuilt Rolls Royce is nice too but i,have no intention or interest in buying one.

I do enjoy my Glock. ...for what it was made for. And I have no intention of selling it. Buying or selling a firearm comes down to practicality. Glock or AR have plenty of aftermarket parts, ammo is cheap enough to take courses with several thousand rounds. On the other hand, and you're going to be floored, I sold my Garand. Nice rifle but limited on ammo variety, expansive to shoot, and pretty much a rifle that's only ment for bench shooting today. None of that sits well with me so someone else can enjoy it

DocB said:

Every one I looked at was priced under $299 including a Colt M4 in 22...

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It seems like Umarex is coming back like a bad case of incurable V.D. In all seriousness, keep away from it and anything Umarex as if it could give you contact herpes.

That "Colt" M4 isn't made by colt. It's made by Umarex. Umarex = utter garbage. I used to own one. I got bit by the AR-15 bug and started out with the Umarex Colt M4 .22lr so I could practice with affordable ammo. I got suckered by the prancing pony roll mark and the weight of the rifle.

The thing was a heap of poop. The instruction manual said that the bolt never had to come out for cleaning. I was to clean it from muzzle to breach. Here's the upper. Looks convincing right?



To clean, part of the process was to loosen the flash hider. The flash hider came loose. To my surprise, the barrel dislocated. The only thing holding the barrel in place is the tension provided by screwing down the flash hider.



I decided to take apart the upper to try and fix it. These pictures were taken after I cleaned an amazing amount of .22lr fouling from all the parts. Here are the working guts removed from the pretty shell.



The bolt is enclosed by the upper, with no easy means of removing it for cleaning.



Here's the completely disassembled upper.



The lower is 100% proprietary. The trigger is held in an enclosed unit. It isn't compatible with any AR-15 stocks, grips, anything. It had a nice fake bolt release paddle that was for show. It was a loose piece that would fall out when the rifle was hinged open. The fake dust cover on the upper was another frustration. It was for show, always open.

Pretty on the outside. Garbage on the inside. I remember 5 years ago, the Umarex Colt M4 had earned such a bad rep that one online dealer's description was "not a good rifle, but might make a good tomato vine trellace if staked into the ground". The blow out price back then was $400. They can keep on dropping the price. I won't ever recommend that pile of garbage to anyone.

Colt M422, HK MP5 22, HK 416 22, it's all the same Umarex garbage internals in a pretty cover.

ChattanoogaPhil said:

I bought one of those plastic .22s the OP mentioned about 6 years ago, a S&W MP 15-22. I paid $450 when they were first released. Have recently seen them advertised at Palmetto for as low as $299 on sale.

I've put over 40,000 rounds through it since new. A great deal of it CCI SV for suppressed shooting. Maybe an average of $20+ a brick all told. 80 bricks X $20 = $1,600. I bought a rimfire can that was about $600 after tax stamp which is worth about nothing used. An optic and others things about $200 or so.

If I'd only known I could have saved $100 by waiting 6 years....

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After my Umarex Colt M4 nightmare experience, I bought what I should have bought in the first place: a S&W M&P 15-22. It's the best .22lr AR out there.

Umarex seems to be behind just about every 22 clone out there even the Colt 1911s. I dought they will be subjected to thousand of rounds the casual attitude of most plinkers are looking for fantasy of ownership, not cutting edge accuracy. So hopefully they will migrate into more expensive firearms. So first the 299 UZI then the 600 dollar Ruger Six.

drgbike said:

Umarex seems to be behind just about every 22 clone out there even the Colt 1911s. I dought they will be subjected to thousand of rounds the casual attitude of most plinkers are looking for fantasy of ownership, not cutting edge accuracy. So hopefully they will migrate into more expensive firearms. So first the 299 UZI then the 600 dollar Ruger Six.

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Umarex has started to build more than just .22lr clones. The new Walther CCP single stack 9mm just carries the Walther name. It's built by Umarex. I don't mean to get anyone's heart rate up. I won't buy any firearm built by Umarex.

After looking for a light weight, light sprung .22lr Pistol, with a fairly good trigger I selected a Walther P22.

My grandson had difficulty with the heavier pistols and triggers.

The slide .. (Yes the slide) is potmetal Zinc Alloy Cast for the purpose.
While I never experienced ANY problems with my light use of that pistol, I did find in my searches, plenty of problems with the slide cracking.

I am quite sure that materials for casting or metal injecting can be very serviceable, but I still like billet, forged, steel or aluminum.

MIM has crept into may of your guns, whether you know it or not.

I will agree that I like my older firearms better than the new plastic ones. . Yup!

Great, now I find out that my Model 12 is made from pot metal.

Eh. I know I like blue steel and walnut , and I also realize I'm an old fart in gun years.

People who entered the world of the gun within the previous 20 or 25yrs think stainless is "normal" . My late father was an old school rifleman , but was excited over early fiberglass and laminated stocks for the stiffness and stabilty . As an addition to his walnut and exotic woods , not a total replacement.

Engineered polymer and high tech coatings fill a niche or durable, practical , if utilitarian at best, ugly as worst looks. But a niche that resonates with a large portion of the marketplce.

While I realize many Mosquitos had issues , the Biggfootette's pink one has been 100% , maybe just lucky. I am pleased with my "Colt" .22lr 1911 , and it's within expectations for semi-plinking grade .22lr.

I don't want the classics to go away , but the new stuff is an additional option , that is well received.

I prefer the older classics made of steel and wood myself. I have a no dash S&W model 49 in my pocket right now I bought as new in box but after being a safe queen a few years I decided life is too short to not enjoy what I have and started carrying it. Most of my gun collection are older S&W revolvers too.
I'm happy though they are now making guns from less expensive materials and lower prices. It makes gun ownership possible for poorer people that need the protection where they often live more than many of us. Also I have some buddies that bought lesser expensive guns for concealed carry that likely wouldn't have spent more for a gun and never bothered to get their permit.
Having lower priced guns on the market has got some to buy guns where they wouldn't have spent the money for higher priced guns and now they have some skin in the game will help us fight the anti-gun people.
As far as cheap 22lr AR lookalikes I passed on them and built a DPMS lower and put a dedicated 22lr upper on it. Works great although cost more and I have the option of putting a different upper on it too.

This sentiment is what caused me to sell a Kel-Tec SU16 and buy a 629.

I don't have any experience with the Colt .22 AR but have seen these sort of quality issues with other models. As others have mentioned you get what you pay for. Most quality dedicated uppers are more expensive than the complete cheap rifles. If you have any sort of decent trigger on your "regular" AR they are absolutely the way to go!

"Things" become collectible because nobody thought they would be valuable in the future and used them with no regard to investment. Occasionally a few would survive and there's the collector value. Too many people are saving too many things these days and the future of almost everything as an investment is quite limited.

Having said that, sure enough, something in the future will be a valuable collectible, all we have to do is figure out what that will be.

Anybody want to buy a stamp collection, speaking of worthless collectibles. Might as well lick em and mail a letter.

I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a gun since the world is full of safe queens.

PS I really really like my Walther PPK/S and don't care what it's made out of or who made it.

O2Guy said:

Great, now I find out that my Model 12 is made from pot metal.

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NOW THATS FUNNY!..........from another M12 shooter.

I was in one of our local pawn shops today looking at what they had. . .didn't find anything to buy. While looking at the long guns the woman behind the counter told me that they always know when a Remington hunting rifle comes in because the trigger guard is always cracked or broken. She said that they sell part kits for these rifles so you can replace all the broken parts after a year or two of use. Plastic junk again! In another gun store later on I heard the owner telling a customer who wanted to sell his fairly new hunting rifle not to sell it. He said that he didn't want to buy it, and the pawn shops were only paying $50 for them right now. You know I travel a lot and I am seeing and hearing the same thing over and over again. When I saw the Smith & Wesson M&P AR 15's in 22 long rifle selling for $250 I knew the day had come. Dealers have to buy in lots of 50 and can sell them for $250 each and still make a profit. Wow.

LittleCooner said:

The heirloom stuff, no way for a yankee to understand the southern rebel pride of family guns given to the next generation,

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I'm a Tennesseean, descended from Tennesseeans and Georgians. And with all due respect, that just doesn't hold water. This forum is full of yankees and midwesterners and so on, who write warmly and appreciatively of the joy of owning and shooting guns that belonged to fathers (or mothers), grandparents, favorite uncles, etc. It's nothing to do with "rebel pride", it's about family pride and love and the honor of being entrusted with treasured firearms formerly owned by treasured people. They most often say their kids will inherit their guns.

Nothing regional or "rebel" about it.

What bothers me about this move to junk is that even if one were willing to pay the price for a gun made of high quality materials, with hand fitted parts, they cannot... they just aren't being manufactured by some manufacturers. There are some companies who are known for making cheap Saturday night specials, but when even the big name companies move to junk, that's sad.

When the OP mentioned aluminum and pot metal I'm sure he meant cheap gravity castings made of aluminum not a forged cylinder of a model 12!

WhiteWillie said:

What bothers me about this move to junk is that even if one were willing to pay the price for a gun made of high quality materials, with hand fitted parts, they cannot... they just aren't being manufactured by some manufacturers. There are some companies who are known for making cheap Saturday night specials, but when even the big name companies move to junk, that's sad.

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Your assumption seems to be that modern guns, made by major companies using anything but hand-fitted steel and wood, qualify as "junk". I respectfully disagree, though I'm devoted to DA revolvers made of steel and stocked with good wood. The newest one I have left is twenty-five years old.

A lot of the new guns may and do lack the charm, mystique, and historic design of the older ones, but they are damn good tools for saving one's butt, reliable and accurate.

I'm a traditionalist, and older than crude oil, but I still appreciate things that work even if they're not made the old way from the old materials.