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Flash Sight Picture_Are You Training this Way?
- Thread starter RichLucky
- Start date
Busy Sights
Hi V0!
And thank you for your reply!
Yeah, I can see how that would get busy in a time-critical moment!
I haven't modified my sights on my BG 380 yet, but liking the "Big Dot" system to make it REAL easy to find the front sight.
https://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8208
Thank you for your input!
Rich
Hi V0!
And thank you for your reply!
Yeah, I can see how that would get busy in a time-critical moment!
I haven't modified my sights on my BG 380 yet, but liking the "Big Dot" system to make it REAL easy to find the front sight.
https://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8208
Thank you for your input!
Rich
Old Eyes
Hi Bam!
And thanks for your reply!
I'm losing the battle on both ends of vision as I get older! (Sucks!)
rich
Hi Bam!
And thanks for your reply!
I'm losing the battle on both ends of vision as I get older! (Sucks!)
rich
Incremental Double Tap?
Hi Elpac!
And thank you for your reply!
For me, it seems to me the second shot is more accurate, as the weapon is already in position and stable from moving up from the draw position. Makes sense.
40 yards on a moving target! Nice!
Thanks for the input!
rich
Hi Elpac!
And thank you for your reply!
For me, it seems to me the second shot is more accurate, as the weapon is already in position and stable from moving up from the draw position. Makes sense.
40 yards on a moving target! Nice!
Thanks for the input!
rich
Front Sight Only
Hi K-framer!
And thank you for your reply!
I'm seeing a lot of front sight only painting from other readers, too.
Take care!
rich
Hi K-framer!
And thank you for your reply!
I'm seeing a lot of front sight only painting from other readers, too.
Take care!
rich
Shooting Flying Discs
Hi Ozark!
Thank you for your reply!
Interesting Input! And amazing what level the human can train to! Once one can do that, up close and personal with a man-sized target would be a walk in the park!
Thanks!
Rich
Hi Ozark!
Thank you for your reply!
Interesting Input! And amazing what level the human can train to! Once one can do that, up close and personal with a man-sized target would be a walk in the park!
Thanks!
Rich
Tiered Approach
Hi Shotgun!
And thank you for your input!
Especially validated by your lengthy experience! So glad to hear you survived your "fights!"
And if I could humbly add: what you said it makes sense to me. I practice two ways:
1) point shooting from the hip if you will, with my BG 380 "belly gun" in close (5 yards): As soon as the weapon is about my belly height, and parallel to the ground I fire two shots, and have had great success getting about 16-17 out of 18 shots on silhouette (3 x 2-shot draws, repeated 3 times). Most end up center mass. I think this saves a bit less than a second from my other method below. And if I was really in a pickle, and couldn't get distance on an attacker, I think this is how I would most likely employ my gun. and...
2) bringing the weapon up to eye-level, as quick as possible while maintaining control, acquiring sights, and if they look "good enough:" firing. I attempt to "push" the gun to the target while simultaneously raising the weapon parallel to the ground. I like to see all three sights somewhat in alignment; and have to admit, I really wanna see that front site! (maybe it IS a subtle priority!) And I get much tighter consistency, of course.
(At further distances, and if I or a loved one is not under threat: I'm probably better a witness with my weapon in my pocket!)
Anyway, not sure if training two ways in-close is helpful or hurtful: one poster smartly said "...while re-thinking, don't over-think..." indeed. And with all that said: I'm just an average shot.
Anyway, thank you for your service and your input!
Rich
Hi Shotgun!
And thank you for your input!
Especially validated by your lengthy experience! So glad to hear you survived your "fights!"
And if I could humbly add: what you said it makes sense to me. I practice two ways:
1) point shooting from the hip if you will, with my BG 380 "belly gun" in close (5 yards): As soon as the weapon is about my belly height, and parallel to the ground I fire two shots, and have had great success getting about 16-17 out of 18 shots on silhouette (3 x 2-shot draws, repeated 3 times). Most end up center mass. I think this saves a bit less than a second from my other method below. And if I was really in a pickle, and couldn't get distance on an attacker, I think this is how I would most likely employ my gun. and...
2) bringing the weapon up to eye-level, as quick as possible while maintaining control, acquiring sights, and if they look "good enough:" firing. I attempt to "push" the gun to the target while simultaneously raising the weapon parallel to the ground. I like to see all three sights somewhat in alignment; and have to admit, I really wanna see that front site! (maybe it IS a subtle priority!) And I get much tighter consistency, of course.
(At further distances, and if I or a loved one is not under threat: I'm probably better a witness with my weapon in my pocket!)
Anyway, not sure if training two ways in-close is helpful or hurtful: one poster smartly said "...while re-thinking, don't over-think..." indeed. And with all that said: I'm just an average shot.
Anyway, thank you for your service and your input!
Rich
In Close: Fuzzy Sights or Fuzzy Target? Good Link!
Hi MisterX!
Great Post, and thanks for the link!
A very long time ago, I was trained to make front and rear sight sharp, and target fuzzy (picture 2 in your link). Guaranteed to work, especially at distance--great accuracy for target shooting. And I even taught my nephew this (blind leading the blind :0)
But in close, what I'm finding I'm doing and liking, is my focus being just opposite: target in focus, while the weapon and sights comes up to meet the line between my eyes and target, then "looking through" the sights and firing as quick as possible once all is "good enough" (as in picture 3 in your link). I actually think this may be a natural occurrence, as just for fun, I tried it the opposite way, trying to find and focus on sights as quick as possible as the weapon comes up, align, and then focus on target: what a timely, wandering mess!
My only issue, as I mentioned in another post, is I strongly favor my left eye, and that's where the barrel tends align with. With both wide open, there is, for me, just too much parallax error.
All this assumed using sights to aim. I mentioned I practice what might be considered shooting from the hip, in responding to a previous post: as soon as the weapon is belly level and parallel: off go the rounds. And I'm satisfied with the results, should I find myself if in a wicked pickle (and thinking that is the most likely scenario I would be deploying a weapon).
Anyway, thank you again for a great post and link!
Rich
Hi MisterX!
Great Post, and thanks for the link!
A very long time ago, I was trained to make front and rear sight sharp, and target fuzzy (picture 2 in your link). Guaranteed to work, especially at distance--great accuracy for target shooting. And I even taught my nephew this (blind leading the blind :0)
But in close, what I'm finding I'm doing and liking, is my focus being just opposite: target in focus, while the weapon and sights comes up to meet the line between my eyes and target, then "looking through" the sights and firing as quick as possible once all is "good enough" (as in picture 3 in your link). I actually think this may be a natural occurrence, as just for fun, I tried it the opposite way, trying to find and focus on sights as quick as possible as the weapon comes up, align, and then focus on target: what a timely, wandering mess!
My only issue, as I mentioned in another post, is I strongly favor my left eye, and that's where the barrel tends align with. With both wide open, there is, for me, just too much parallax error.
All this assumed using sights to aim. I mentioned I practice what might be considered shooting from the hip, in responding to a previous post: as soon as the weapon is belly level and parallel: off go the rounds. And I'm satisfied with the results, should I find myself if in a wicked pickle (and thinking that is the most likely scenario I would be deploying a weapon).
Anyway, thank you again for a great post and link!
Rich
Blunderbuss
Hi Michigan!
And thank you for your reply!
I'm sensing there is a lot of validity to your approach, given your environment and capabilities, and anticipated scenario. (Note: I'm not LEO or "expert shot," just agreeing as a fellow arms owner.) I agree.
And as my arms get increasingly "shorter" with age, and vision marginalized on both ends; I've attached a picture of my next deep pocket personal carry weapon (it's design is making a lot of sense!):
Cheers!
Rich
Hi Michigan!
And thank you for your reply!
I'm sensing there is a lot of validity to your approach, given your environment and capabilities, and anticipated scenario. (Note: I'm not LEO or "expert shot," just agreeing as a fellow arms owner.) I agree.
And as my arms get increasingly "shorter" with age, and vision marginalized on both ends; I've attached a picture of my next deep pocket personal carry weapon (it's design is making a lot of sense!):
Cheers!
Rich
Attachments
Flash Sight Picture Instructor
Hi OK!
And thank you for your reply!
Cool: an instructor!
What else can you share with me/us about what you teach, methodology, or distinct steps, and what criteria you have that you're satisfied to pull the trigger, etc.
When you teach, for instance, do place a concerted effort on bringing the weapon up parallel to the ground, or just raise the weapon, look for front sight, and then "rotate" the back sights up to meet front sight.
Outside of 5 yards are you teaching to focus on the sights or shoot threw them and keep the target in focus?
Curious...
Some of us may be doing the flash sight picture and not knowing that's what it's called, who knows, so anything you can further share would be appreciated.
Thanks again!
Rich
Hi OK!
And thank you for your reply!
Cool: an instructor!
What else can you share with me/us about what you teach, methodology, or distinct steps, and what criteria you have that you're satisfied to pull the trigger, etc.
When you teach, for instance, do place a concerted effort on bringing the weapon up parallel to the ground, or just raise the weapon, look for front sight, and then "rotate" the back sights up to meet front sight.
Outside of 5 yards are you teaching to focus on the sights or shoot threw them and keep the target in focus?
Curious...
Some of us may be doing the flash sight picture and not knowing that's what it's called, who knows, so anything you can further share would be appreciated.
Thanks again!
Rich
Arc Angel
Member
The above statement may, or may not be true. The problem is that in the race between remaining entirely politically correct and continuing to remain alive, if you guess wrong ....... you might not be around for either the coroner's inquest, or the fascinating court case which could follow; and, who knows, you might, also, miss your chance to meet Massad Ayoob.
Another thing: Anyone who still thinks that most CQB pistol gunfights, all, occur at very close range is, sadly, well behind the times. The most recent gunfighting data reveals that many victims managed to survive by acting sooner rather than later.
Many, if not most, unfortunate victims of gun violence are, invariably, the same righteous, upright, and politically correct people who: (1) Were, themselves, unarmed, (2) were armed but, nevertheless, still got themselves unexpectedly ambushed, (3) were naïvely unprepared and/or overconfident, (4) foolishly trusted in either, 'the system' or someone else to protect them, (5) simply weren't paying attention, or - in the alternative - (6) were either unable to think fast enough to form a viable survival plan, or (7) regrettably had no practical means of adequate self-defense available with which to save themselves.
'Street survival', and/or CQB pistol gunfighting ain't, 'rocket science'! Out on the street, out in the real world, attempting to remain politically correct, and/or hesitating in order to verify the parameters of whatever potentially violent (life or death) scenario you're confronted with is no different that the driver of a dragster waiting until he's sure the light is green before he releases the clutch!
Any drag racer who feels compelled to wait, who needs to verify his own behavior to himself before he acts, is sure to end up looking at the back of the other driver's dragster; and, even though it's currently politically incorrect to talk about it, the exact same rationale behind drag racing, also, applies to CQB pistol gunfighting.
Don't believe me? OK, do an internet search for any of the FBI reports on how armed criminals think, and are most likely to behave. Then read retired Sheriff's Deputy Lieutenant Dave Spaulding's incisive analysis of what really happens in a gunfight.
In brief: An armed opponent who intends you harm will always try to shoot first, as well as BEFORE you do. Hence the practical, real world value of using: (1) a, 'flash sight picture', (I don't like that term.) (2) speed shooting, and/or (3) firing sooner and at greater distance rather than waiting to be absolutely positively 100% sure that you're doing, 'the right thing'.
Excessive time, excessive doubt, confusion, inexperience, and uncertainty are, all, intrinsically dangerous intellectual dilemmas that no CQB pistol gunfighter can afford to indulge in. As my mother once said to me,
'Son, you can't rely upon other people to give you the right answer.' 'Other people aren't going to save you.' 'The smart move is to always be prepared to save yourself.' 'You constantly need to be ready; and the solution should always be available beforehand.' 'Anything else, any other sort of personal behavior, is a recipe for disaster.'
(At the time Mom was talking about financial investments; but, it didn't take me long to appreciate that my mother's advice enjoyed a much wider application!)
You gents are of course free to do as you see fit. But it really doesn't have to be so convoluted.
I defer to post number 3.
I defer to post number 3.
Arc Angel
Member
I don't! Why? Because in my more than 25 years of experience training other people to use firearms I would say that better than 90% of them could not while training, and I strongly suspect cannot now, speed shoot with a pistol. Knowing how to grab a, 'flash sight picture' and being able to speed shoot well is even more rare than being a good wing shooter with a shotgun.
Look at the Wikipedia article referenced in the OP's first post - What a convoluted intellectual mess! Anyone who truly thinks that he's going to learn the fundamentals of speed shooting by reading an article like that would be better off taking up knitting. (He'll get farther!)
I've worked and practiced with several advanced IDPA shooters. I KNOW what it takes for these guys to become faster and faster with their pistols, as well as to MAINTAIN that edge. I, too, have had to suffer through, 'breaking the mental and emotional barriers' of my conscious mind. (Something that, without BOTH continued regular practice and reinforced belief is very easy to fall away from.)
Apparently I was a little too oblique in my above reply; so, this time, I'll try to keep things more simple and to the point. Albert Einstein once said that, 'All knowledge (Read, 'skill') begins with an accurate definition of terms.' Until you know AND understand the terms (the parameters and idiosyncrasies) of the problem you're NEVER going to be able to genuinely master it. Neither should it be forgotten that mastery, and retention are NOT the same thing - Especially when it comes to a, 'naturally depreciating skill set' like pistol shooting.
Simple enough?
I don't! Why? Because in my more than 25 years of experience training other people to use firearms I would say that better than 90% of them could not while training, and I strongly suspect cannot now, speed shoot with a pistol. Knowing how to grab a, 'flash sight picture' and being able to speed shoot well is even more rare than being a good wing shooter with a shotgun.
Look at the Wikipedia article referenced in the OP's first post - What a convoluted intellectual mess! Anyone who truly thinks that he's going to learn the fundamentals of speed shooting by reading an article like that would be better off taking up knitting. (He'll get farther!)
I've worked and practiced with several advanced IDPA shooters. I KNOW what it takes for these guys to become faster and faster with their pistols, as well as to MAINTAIN that edge. I, too, have had to suffer through, 'breaking the mental and emotional barriers' of my conscious mind. (Something that, without BOTH continued regular practice and reinforced belief is very easy to fall away from.)
Apparently I was a little too oblique in my above reply; so, this time, I'll try to keep things more simple and to the point. Albert Einstein once said that, 'All knowledge (Read, 'skill') begins with an accurate definition of terms.' Until you know AND understand the terms (the parameters and idiosyncrasies) of the problem you're NEVER going to be able to genuinely master it. Neither should it be forgotten that mastery, and retention are NOT the same thing - Especially when it comes to a, 'naturally depreciating skill set' like pistol shooting.
Simple enough?
Simple enough? Evidently not because 90% couldn't do it.
Without writing a book here, I've tried it. Doesn't work for me. So no I don't train with it.
In my mind, you will either need to point shoot or make a steady aimed shot which means aligning the sights. Point shooting means that you may or may not reference the sights. Depends on who you ask. And it's been hotly debated here a time or two.
In my opinion "flash" sight shooting is unnecessary. So why complicate things? That's my point. If you like it and are good at it then continue. But keep in mind that when you get older such things may not work and they will become less important. But even then the sights will be there to greet you.
Hi OK!
And thank you for your reply!
Cool: an instructor!
What else can you share with me/us about what you teach, methodology, or distinct steps, and what criteria you have that you're satisfied to pull the trigger, etc.
When you teach, for instance, do place a concerted effort on bringing the weapon up parallel to the ground, or just raise the weapon, look for front sight, and then "rotate" the back sights up to meet front sight.
Outside of 5 yards are you teaching to focus on the sights or shoot threw them and keep the target in focus?
Curious...
Some of us may be doing the flash sight picture and not knowing that's what it's called, who knows, so anything you can further share would be appreciated.
Thanks again!
Rich
NRA courses are available all over the country. Enter your zip code for a search.
NRAInstructors.org - Portal for NRA Certified Instructors, NRA Education and Training
The books are also sold separately:
NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection in the Home (HANDBOOK ONLY)
For defense use, contact range is no sights, then flash sighting further out, then sight picture at range. The exact distance to transition depends on the individual. I would not expect a novice to point shoot at the distance I do.
For any of this to work, much practice is required to be effective, because the whole point is to do it quickly without stopping to think about your shooting technique. Like riding a bicycle, the mechanics of shooting should be instinctive and smooth.
Arc Angel
Member
Simple enough? Evidently not because 90% couldn't do it.
Without writing a book here, I've tried it. Doesn't work for me. So no I don't train with it.
In my mind, you will either need to point shoot or make a steady aimed shot which means aligning the sights. Point shooting means that you may or may not reference the sights. Depends on who you ask. And it's been hotly debated here a time or two.
In my opinion "flash" sight shooting is unnecessary. So why complicate things? That's my point. If you like it and are good at it then continue. But keep in mind that when you get older such things may not work and they will become less important. But even then the sights will be there to greet you.
I, actually, agree with much of what you've said; (and I don't need to write a book in order to explain, 'Why').
There ARE necessary prerequisites to acquiring, BOTH, flash sight picture AND point shooting skills. The guidance of an experienced instructor is only one of them. You also need to practice frequently, and have access to - not hundreds, but -thousands of rounds of ammunition BEFORE you'll be able to demonstrate the same skill as, say, and IDPA Master Class pistol shooter.
Obviously there needs to be a strong commitment on the student's behalf to personally accomplish the skill set. Another thing: I've been doing this for a long time; and, quite frankly, everything I've said about learning how to use a, 'flash sight picture' is equally true of good point shooting, too. In fact I believe that anyone who's adept at the one skill set isn't far away from mastery of the other.
I do not regard the kind of, 'point shooting' I've seen at many of the popular shooting schools as authentic point shooting. It's one thing to shoot from retention into a target you're right on top of, and call it, 'point shooting'. It's entirely another thing to draw, extend the weapon forward, and place accurate fire upon a target that's standing 10 or 12 yards away. (Most pistol shooters are unable to do that, too.)
Personally, unless a gunman is able to effectively, 'point shoot' against targets at 10 to 12 yards away then, as far as I'm concerned, I don't regard that gunman as a competent point shooter. Because I spend most of my time, nowadays, at strictly regulated firing ranges I haven't practiced genuine, 'point shooting' in, well, more than 5 or 6 years; however, when I used to practice frequently I was adept at a full 15 to 18 yards - THAT is real, 'point shooting'; the kind that, in my experience, 90% of most pistol shooters are, also, unable to do. (Except, of course, on internet gun forums!)
V0OBWxZS16
Member
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For me it's undesirable in non-time-critical shooting too.
If you've never seen them in person big dots are BIG. I had small dots on a full-size pistol for a while. They were decent for action shooting, but I could not make the transition from those to big dots and eventually went back to standard notch and post sights.
Front Sight, for example, teaches that your accuracy in "real life" is half what you achieve on the range. Assuming that's true then throwing 1-2 rounds off the silhouette in training is definitely unacceptable.
You're welcome.
