Cleaning tarnished ammo

Brilliant solution.....

If you notice your mag spring getting weak, buy a new spring or replace the mag. Don't keep using it until the bad guys come in your door and you have to shake your pistol up and down to get it to feed.

A comment often seen here is 'beating a dead horse'. I wish to propose that 'making mountains out of molehills' be added to the standard answer list.


PS Sometimes when people say that I'm beating a dead horse, I feel that they are missing the almost imperceptible movement of the horse that indicates that it still may be alive. Of course it might be moving because I'm beating it.

The missing terms in this witty discussion are:
1] elastic deformation,
2] plastic deformation

Elastic has nothing to do with your underwear, and plastic has nothing to do with polymer parts, both have a lot to do with paper clips and mag springs.

In my mechanical engineering curriculum, Electrical Circuits was a 2 semester agony. Spring Theory and Elastic Deformation was 4 weeks of severe pain.

I will continue my walk away.

Muss Muggins said:

Bend metal back and forth, it weakens. Leave it alone, it's good.

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Your bent paper clip analogy to a magazine spring under static compression (hardly left alone) is erroneous for the following reason: in the case of paper clip that's bent the mode of failure is due to exceeding the yield strength of paper clip steel due to excessive bending moment and the failure is rapid and can result in fracture; in the case of magazine spring that is statically compressed the mode of failure is mechanical creep over time -- the stress is well below the yield point of the steel and the spring becomes useless well before fracture.

Engineer1911 said:

The missing terms in this witty discussion are:
1] elastic deformation,
2] plastic deformation

Elastic has nothing to do with your underwear, and plastic has nothing to do with polymer parts, both have a lot to do with paper clips and mag springs.

In my mechanical engineering curriculum, Electrical Circuits was a 2 semester agony. Spring Theory and Elastic Deformation was 4 weeks of severe pain.

I will continue my walk away.

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That is why the paper clip analogy is erroneous; mag springs are operating elastically below yield stress BUT deform due to creep; bent paper clip stress is above yield resulting in plastic deformation and probable fracture. How can anyone not like Electrical Circuits?!?

In layman's terms...

Springs get fatigued without being overstressed. They just get 'tired'.

rwsmith said:

Springs get fatigued without being overstressed. They just get 'tired'.

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Fatigue, when it refers to materials as opposed to living things, is a process that permanently degrades or lowers the strength. When strength is sufficiently degraded over time, failure results, of course. Metal fatigue over time is really bad when reliability of such metal is paramount. That's why Mec-Gar, the prominent manufacturer of magazines, recommends that self-defense or duty magazines be rotated every 90 days so that magazine springs do NOT have a continuous compressive force exerted on them for extended period of time!

And what was Shakespeare's original intent?

Just to argue......

Engineer1911 said:

And what was Shakespeare's original intent?

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Well, the paper clip analogy isn't ENTIRELY wrong. If you use a paper clip for a spring and don't bend it past it's elastic limit, it acts as a spring, although not a very good one. However, just like a REAL spring it will also fatigue, probably more quickly because it's not made from the best material for springs.

rwsmith said:

Well, the paper clip analogy isn't ENTIRELY wrong. If you use a paper clip for a spring and don't bend it past it's elastic limit, it acts as a spring, although not a very good one. However, just like a REAL spring it will also fatigue, probably more quickly because it's not made from the best material for springs.

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The paper clip/magazine spring analogy is entirely irrelevant and wrong because if you don't bend the paper clip -- but bending the paper clip is the premise in this irrelevant analogy-- you will not exceed the yield stress of the clip and thus will hardly likely fracture the paper clip. Sure, substantially exceeding yield stress will fracture solid metal -- but this is NOT the mode of failure in magazine springs which operate BELOW yield stress.

As others have pointed out, do not use Brasso or any other ammonia-based formulation on your ammo or cartridge cases. Very bad ju-ju.

A light cleaning with 0000-grade steel wool will remove most surface tarnish and discoloration. If that doesn't work I would suspect that the corrosion has gone too deeply into the metal for it to be trusted for further use.

Arik said:

Fourth. Despite the fact that the ONE company tells you to change often there are hundreds of examples of people leaving mags loaded for decades. Not one or two unusual cases but hundreds.

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"Anecdotal Evidence!"

"Junk Science!"

"Those claims of hundreds of examples of magazine springs doing something, are worthless except to start fires with..."

Sorry...couldn't resist...

Maybe we need a simulated magazine, that will act kinda-sorta like a real magazine, so we can do lab-controlled, replicable scientific studies on how magazines in the real world actually behave...heheheheh!

Steve912 said:

"Anecdotal Evidence!"

"Junk Science!"

"Those claims of hundreds of examples of magazine springs doing something, are worthless except to start fires with..."

Sorry...couldn't resist...

Maybe we need a simulated magazine, that will act kinda-sorta like a real magazine, so we can do lab-controlled, replicable scientific studies on how magazines in the real world actually behave...heheheheh!

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Magazine spring manufacturers have a long and well-established experience regarding these springs and on the basis of this highly reliable experience they state that constant compression of magazine springs does shorten useful spring life.

*Klutch* said:

I put mine in the tumbler and give it a whirl

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That's a very bad idea. Not only can tumbling change the shape and size of the granules of the powder, but the cartridges hitting each other can cause dents and even in some cases loosen whatever crimp the bullets might have. Loosening the crimp can change to pressure of the cartridge to less than it should have. Altering the shape and size of the granules can speed up the burn rate. Theres a reason while this practice has been considered a no no for many years and mentioned many times in print.

While true that some manufacturers may have tumbled ammo prior to packaging in years gone by, it may or may not still be done. Also keep in mind 40-50 years ago there was a reason why many of us started reloading, especially rifle ammo. That is that factory ammo might give us 3-4" groups at 100 yards. Our own reloads might get down to a 1/2" or smaller groups. It was not about cheaper ammo as it is now. Factory ammo still won't compete with a well developed, home grown load. If for no other reason, I personally wouldn't tumble any of my loaded rifle ammo because I want to preserve the maximum accuracy I built into it. Bullets banging against each other are a detriment to accuracy. I don't use a bullet that has fallen off the bench during the process because the lead core will be damaged by the impact with the concrete floor below my bench and harm accuracy. You can test that easily by dropping a bunch of bullets you use in a top load and then loading them and check the accuracy against previous groups. There will be a documented difference that you can see. You can also take a bunch of your best pistol load and group it. Then tumble another bunch and compare it and you will find out there is considerable difference, especially if you do it with a ransom rest.

There are people who will disagree and we all know there are people who can't be told anything they will believe. If you want to tumble your ammo to clean it, have at it. If you want to clean it with an ammonia based cleaner, fine with me. If you want to spray your ammo with WD40, go ahead. I only draw the line if you expect me to use it. I also don't see what being a long time builder of 1911's has to do with tumbling ammo and this discussion. My opinion is absolutely nothing. I built custom 1911's as an avocation from the late '70's until the early 2000's. My guns and articles about them have appeared in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER and COMBAT HANDGUNS on this side of the Atlantic and in GAZETTE DES ARMES and ACTION magazines in France. I had a pretty good reputation for that, which has nothing whatsoever to do with my knowledge of ammunition practices or reloading.

QED said:

Magazine spring manufacturers have a long and well-established experience regarding these springs and on the basis of this highly reliable experience they state that constant compression of magazine springs does shorten useful spring life.

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I have no doubts of that.

QED said:

The paper clip/magazine spring analogy is entirely irrelevant and wrong because if you don't bend the paper clip -- but bending the paper clip is the premise in this irrelevant analogy-- you will not exceed the yield stress of the clip and thus will hardly likely fracture the paper clip. Sure, substantially exceeding yield stress will fracture solid metal -- but this is NOT the mode of failure in magazine springs which operate BELOW yield stress.

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You use your experience/education and change your springs every 3,500 miles, I'll use my education and experience and leave mine alone. We'll both be happy. I know I am . . .

Muss Muggins said:

You use your experience/education and change your springs every 3,500 miles, I'll use my education and experience and leave mine alone. We'll both be happy. I know I am . . .

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If you deem your paper clip/magazine spring analogy valid and are content with your comprehension of the relevant issue -- that's just fine with me. Hopefully this discussion has been useful to some who may have learned something.

:

QED said:

If you deem your paper clip/magazine spring analogy valid and are content with your comprehension of the relevant issue -- that's just fine with me. Hopefully this discussion has been useful to some who may have learned something.

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SO...... Does the heat build up in the paper clip from all this bending back and forth cause the failure of the clip or is it just an irrelevant byproduct of bending paper clips ??

Eddie
P.S. I clean loaded ammo all the time in a vibrating polisher . Been doing it for years and have never had any problems with the ammo or brass because of it. I don't think I would use a tumbler myself but I had a friend that did and he also never had any problems.

How about.....

Eddie Southgate said:

:

SO...... Does the heat build up in the paper clip from all this bending back and forth cause the failure of the clip or is it just an irrelevant byproduct of bending paper clips ??

Eddie
P.S. I clean loaded ammo all the time in a vibrating polisher . Been doing it for years and have never had any problems with the ammo or brass because of it. I don't think I would use a tumbler myself but I had a friend that did and he also never had any problems.

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How about tumblers with stainless steel pins?

What you are saying is right.....

QED said:

The paper clip/magazine spring analogy is entirely irrelevant and wrong because if you don't bend the paper clip -- but bending the paper clip is the premise in this irrelevant analogy-- you will not exceed the yield stress of the clip and thus will hardly likely fracture the paper clip. Sure, substantially exceeding yield stress will fracture solid metal -- but this is NOT the mode of failure in magazine springs which operate BELOW yield stress.

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What you are saying is right, but you are imposing conditions that I made no mention of.


All I'm saying is that a paper clip can be used as a spring, but it would be a very poor one, even if used BELOW yield stress like a magazine spring So could a spoon, or a screwdriver. Other metals have the same properties of spring steel but in vastly different degrees.

I can go put a paper clip in my bench vise and bend it a little, and it will spring back. If I keep doing that it will at some point weaken and not offer the resistance that it did at the start. And at some point, it may not quite spring back to the original position. Like a tired magazine spring.

QED, a few things are patently obvious.
1) You are an engineer type - probably a mechanical engineer - or at least one in the making
2) You are a bright fellow
3) You are attempting to dazzle or browbeat others into changing their minds using the two previously listed characteristics of your personality.
4) You are right - IN THEORY. You've got all the theory down pat.
5) In the real world, and based on practical EXPERIENCE, the length of time required for mechanical creep to seriously degrade the performance of a quality magazine spring is measured in decades - or even longer. Long enough to make the whole argument pointless.
6) Wolf just might be exaggerating the facts a little - they do have a vested interest in doing so since selling springs - including magazine springs - is the business they are in.

You're a new guy around here, so just a bit of friendly advice (and I DO mean this in a friendly way). Dogmatically hammering on the same point for the sake of being right isn't the way to win friends and influence people. That may be the way to win lots of admirers on a lot of forums, but not here. So you might want to lighten up a little. This is a nice place with lots of nice people, many of whom can give you the benefit of MANY years of real experience. Don't discount the value of that experience, even if it doesn't 100% line up with the theories that you've obviously learned (very well) in books.

People around here are known to do things like GIVE perfect strangers on the board parts that they could just as easily sell, just to help out a fellow enthusiast. That's the kind of place this is, BUT people don't tend to offer that kind of help to those who care more about being right and showing off their smarts, than they do about making friends, and respecting others.

BTW, not that it matters, but I am also an engineer - kinda one of those "takes one to know one" deals....