Is the single stack service pistol obsolete?

What's the mission?

I think the average CCW or homeowner is well-served by a single stack pistol as in most instances, thugs will flee upon encountering armed resistance. Start shooting fleeing felons in the back and you'll likely face grave legal consequences.

Police officers, on the other hand, sometimes face the phenomena of an individual bent on "suicide-by-cop" and who hopes to take a few cops with him. They are also more likely to face multiple adversaries. I highly recommend that you read up on the 1986 FBI Miami shootout as well as the Newhall (CA) incident of the early 70s.

But the common denominator is that regardless of capacity, you must be proficient enough to make your first rounds count. Officers have indeed emptied an entire hi-cap magazine without a single hit.

Technology is a wonderful thing and it affects the firearms industry just like everything else.

Clinging to obsolete technology for nostalgic reasons is fine but anyone who believes a large, heavy, handgun with limited capacity is somehow as good as or better than something smaller, lighter, and with more capacity is only kidding themselves.

If it weren't for technology we'd all be driving cars that get ten miles per gallon, making calls with the rotary dial phone hooked to the land line at our house and watching Andy Griffin on a large, heavy television with a really small screen with a bad picture.

Obsolete? In reference to what? For collectors no gun is ever obsolete. For those who were issued a certain weapon, no matter the climate of current events it never becomes obsolete to them I reckon.

As far as 8 nor 9 rounds being enough....maybe....maybe not. In human combat magazine capacity has always been an important issue. The fastest magazine change is the one you don't need to make. All things being equal, that's reason enough for me to choose a handgun that holds as many rounds as possible in a single magazine. But for me, I don't choose my off duty carry based on nostalgia or any other issue beyond form and function. Sometimes, for me that means a 5 shot J frame in my front pocket or a double stacked auto appendix carried inside my waistband....but never a single stacked auto, although I do own one. As always, YMMV.

There are a lot of answers to various questions on this thread.

To answer the OPs specific question: Yes.

Service pistols? My answer is that single stack pistols are rare but not obsolete.

When I started my LE career in '90, my dept let us choose between 3 guns. Smith 5903, 3906 or the 4506. IIRC all but one female recruit chose the 3906. A majority of the males chose the 5903. A handful or two chose the 45. I chose that gun because after trying all 3, I shot it the best and it fit my hand better. Likewise with the female officers.

Only fairly recently did they finally "retire" all those to switch over to the Glock 17 Gen 4. I would not hesitate to strap on that old "obsolete" Smith 45 (8+1) to return to service.

For me the true advance in service weapons has been the proliferation of depts authorizing the issue of AR carbines for officer's use. The 870 was (and is) a fine option. A centerfire rifle opens up far more options than worrying about how many rounds fit into a single magazine.

YMMV.

OP asked if single stacks were "obsolete in general?"

Have to disagree with Pete...... my choice of gun is purpose driven.... and based on risk assessment.

Here on my end of the "Burbs of the Burgh" the risk is low and my purpose/choice is for comfortable concealed carry.........my single stack 39xx 's and an extra magazine or two meet my needs and .....IMHO are not obsolete.

Now if I've got the option of open carry or I'm an officer/LEO.....in all likelihood I'd opt for a 69xx at minimum..... or a 915, 59xx series or my Beretta Centurion w/ 17+1 and a spare "or 2", 18 or 20 rd magazine(s)

American1776 said:

I prefer single stack autos for full size pistols. I carry my S&W 539 9mm and now my Ruger p90 .45, both 8shot single stacks.

I've noticed that full size service pistols have mostly become double stacks. Hi-capacity is the norm.

Back in the 80s and 90s, single stack 9mm pistols were the universal choices for anti-terrorism sidearms in Germany. The NJSP carried the P7M8 for 15 years, and many LE departments issued the SIG p220 8 shot .45.

Seems today 12 rounds is minimum, and 17-19 rounds common. To be honest, the new double stacks are quite ergonomic.

I'll still carry my full sized single stack 9 and 45; but I wonder if they are becoming obsolete in general? Thoughts?

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You have to look who is using the pistol to answer the question. If we are talking about LEO then yes, except for a few highly specialized groups who choose mission oriented gear. Capacity is king these days and the terminal ballistics between 9mm and 45 ACP, thinking 1911 or Sig P220 here, are too small to justify fielding a duty weapon with lower capacity. For LEO the pistol is a primary weapon.

In the Military the Marines have purchased a bunch Colts 1911s but you have to remember that the pistol is a backup to a backup and not a primary weapon for these guys so capacity does not necessarily win the day. However on the larger front the Army is getting standard capacity 9mm Sig P320s so even within out military the double stack is winning.

One of the huge changes pushing double stacks is the prevalence of striker fired pistols and better ergonomics. Older DA/SA double stacks had longer trigger reaches. With a striker the trigger pulls does not have to be as long and the reset is shorter. You can make a "double action" gun with the reach and feel of a "single action" gun cutting down the length of pull.

Old steel and alum pistols with unchangeable backstraps made it harder to fit double stacks into a wide range of hands. With modular pistols with interchangeable back straps, short reach triggers many more shooters can be accommodated with todays double stack pistols. Look at the P320, Glock gen 4, XD etc... all have ways to accommodate lots of different hands.

So when all things are equal people opt for more capacity. This does not mean the single stack 1911 or P220 is going away but they are just not going to be driving the market. I do not think the 1911 will ever go away because Americans are obsessed with it but its days a primary LEO weapon, duty gun and even CCW is fading. IMHO

I personally love single stack guns of all sizes because they fit my hands better than most double stacks but in all honesty I own a lot more double stacks than single stacks. If you know how to fit a gun to you hands then there are tons of options out there that can fit you so again why sacrifice capacity.

BAM-BAM said:

OP asked if single stacks were "obsolete in general?"

Have to disagree with Pete...... my choice of gun is purpose driven.... and based on risk assessment.

Here on my end of the "Burbs of the Burgh" the risk is low and my purpose/choice is for comfortable concealed carry.........my single stack 39xx 's and an extra magazine or two meet my needs and .....IMHO are not obsolete.

Now if I've got the option of open carry or I'm an officer/LEO.....in all likelihood I'd opt for a 69xx at minimum..... or a 915, 59xx series or my Beretta Centurion w/ 17+1 and a spare "or 2", 18 or 20 rd magazine(s)

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He asked if single stack SERVICE pistols we're obsolete! [emoji13]




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When you say "Service pistol", that would be someone in a law enforcement or military capacity prepared go in harms way. For that person, a single stack would generally be obsolete.

There will always be exceptions.

AlHunt said:

When you say "Service pistol", that would be someone in a law enforcement or military capacity prepared go in harms way. For that person, a single stack would generally be obsolete.

There will always be exceptions.

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I think it would mean a gun made for that role.

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American1776 said:

I've noticed that full size service pistols have mostly become double stacks. Hi-capacity is the norm.


I'll still carry my full sized single stack 9 and 45; but I wonder if they are becoming obsolete in general? Thoughts?

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We are interpreting his "question" differently.............. I don't think he's been back to clarify......


He references that most "full size service pistols" are now mostly double stack......... and carry 12 to 18 rounds

But his question is;................... are single stacks "becoming obsolete in general?"...

my answer to him is "in general " single stack handguns are not becoming obsolete as they continue to serve many of us very well for our purposes.



In fact there have been many new single stack guns introduced over the past few year .....including by Glock........ who made their reputation with hi cap double stack guns........ and by Sig, S&W and others.

In general single stack are not becoming obsolete..many/most use the same technology as their fat butt siblings... but; as an open carry service gun they have mostly been replaced by hi-cap models.

Service pistols among civilians is most likely a full size pistol. Once reading the OP it is clear that is where his thoughts probably were. Hope he clarifies that for us.

But the reality is capacity does not matter once you are dead. The bad guy gets you with a 22 short derringer in the head the fight is over. This idea that the gun, any gun will make you superman, or superwomen is dangerous.

To clarify: im referring to service sized autos (4-5 inch barrel), being used as a primary sidearm in both law enforcement and citizen carry.

Historically, private citizens tend to choose their handguns based on what is popular in LE.

To be clear: law enforcement primary sidearm, and private citizens who choose full sized pistols.

American1776 said:

To clarify: im referring to service sized autos (4-5 inch barrel), being used as a primary sidearm in both law enforcement and citizen carry.

Historically, private citizens tend to choose their handguns based on what is popular in LE.

To be clear: law enforcement primary sidearm, and private citizens who choose full sized pistols.

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I carry one every day . . .

(Edit: To me, a service pistol doesn't leave a pinky finger dangling. Your definition might be different)

American1776 said:

To clarify: im referring to service sized autos (4-5 inch barrel), being used as a primary sidearm in both law enforcement and citizen carry.

Historically, private citizens tend to choose their handguns based on what is popular in LE.

To be clear: law enforcement primary sidearm, and private citizens who choose full sized pistols.

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Not to start an argument...but another point of personal interpretation of your origional post...

As long as I can remember "service size" really has had no firm definition.......from 2" Model 10s ,36s and 2 1/2" 19s to S&W 39xx series and 6906 to Glock 26/27s..... have all served as "primary duty guns" with Detectives and plain clothes officers.... and the guys wearing White shirts (Lt.s and higher)

To MissMuggins point:in Europe Police and Military Service Size guns P5,6 and 7s are all what here in the States are generally considered compacts...... heck even the Beretta 92 "Compact" or single stack Compact Type-M (8+1)....... are the size of a Smith 59xx.


My point is that single stack guns are not "in general Obsolete"..... they work for me and and you seem to like them so don't get caught in the trap of "carrying what the police/military" carry........ those are generally supplied by the lowest bidder!!!!!

If in doubt just add a 2nd or 3rd extra magazine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh ya.... dump that Ruger and grab yourself a S&W 4566!!!!!!!

robertrwalsh said:

Definitely not. There are some people, perhaps many, that can manage a single-stack pistol quite well but do to the physical size of their hands can not manage a double-stack pistol. Any reasonable person will tell you that eight or nine shots in a weapon that fits your hand and you can shoot well are better than 15 or16 shots in a pistol that you can not shoot well.

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As far as service pistols, if one cannot qualify with the issued pistol, then one doesn't get the job.

BE Mike said:

As far as service pistols, if one cannot qualify with the issued pistol, then one doesn't get the job.

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Unfortunately............... and for better or worse....

We've been living in the age of "reasonable accommodation" for a few decades now..................

BAM-BAM said:

My point is that single stack guns are not "in general Obsolete"..... they work for me and and you seem to like them so don't get caught in the trap of "carrying what the police/military" carry........ those are generally supplied by the lowest bidder!!!!!

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Actually most major agencies and the military actually test the guns. There were a lot of H&K's selected by federal agencies and I don't think that they were the lowest priced of the pistols tested. If so, there would be a lot of HiPoints in holsters out there.

BAM-BAM said:

Unfortunately............... and for better or worse....

We've been living in the age of "reasonable accommodation" for a few decades now..................

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That is not my personal experience. My experience is that there are actually standards that must be met. Of course that is with a major agency. I don't know what the Loving County Texas (one of the least populated counties in the U.S.) Sheriff's Dept. does.

For open carry, they may be obsolete. But they are still alot easier to conceal than a double stack handgun because the grip is the most difficult part to conceal. Shorter and thinner are easier to hide.