What is the limiting factor in ball 5.56 Nato Ammo?

...5.56 bullets...55 grains in weight...

...have very poor sectional density...around .158 ...

...poor sectional density means poor ballistic coefficient...

...which all adds up to lousy aerodynamics and poor penetration...

...you'd need a bullet around 105 grains or more to get really great performance...
 
For that matter, the m-80 308 bullet isn't very accurate either.
What I have read is that the military bullets are designed to have marginal stability, since one of the wounding mechanisms is gyration or tumbling.
The m-80 or m193 bullets I use to smack steel at 2 or 300 yds. Good enough for that purpose.
If I ask a sandbox vet what his favorite long gun was the answer is usually "grenade launcher".
 
I have some questions for the OP:
What type of rifle are you shooting?
Do you shoot a different rifle/ammo combination better than 4MOA?
Does your rifle that shoots 4MOA with military ball ammo shoot better groups with other ammo?

I have heard that the accuracy requirement for an M4 is 4MOA. Every one I have been issued shot better than this. I shoot my personal LE6920 better than this. The M-16A2 I was issued long ago shot really well.

I do not know the specified requirements for 5.56 ammo, but I would expect 2-3 MOA with an off the shelf / standard M4 or AR-15 with bulk ammo. I would expect better with match ammo.
 
Biggfoot44 said:
The MilSpec requirements quoted are referring to the " deviation" , ie the radius from the group center, not the group size . For a 1.8in deviation, that would equate to a 3.6in Diameter group .
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That's actually not quite correct. A 1.8" standard deviation means that 67% of the rounds would fall within 1.8" of point of aim. another 27% would fall between 1.8" and 3.6" of POA (within 2 SD), and the remainder would fall between 2 and 3 SD (5.4" of POA).

A 1.8" standard deviation at 200 yards is essentially a 5.4" radius from the point of aim, and a 10.8" diameter group. That's a 5.15 MOA group.

A 4"-5" group with M855 from an M4 or M4gry at 100 yards is just par for the course.
 
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ArchAngelCD said:
That is not good at only 100 yards.

What bullet weight are you shoiting? What is the twist rate? Your barrel might not be capable of stabilizing the bullet you're shooting.
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I asked you this way back in Post #2 but you still haven't told us. With what weight bullet are you getting poor accuracy and what is the twist in your barrel?
 
In another thread (Range Report) he IDs the piece as Bushmaster, no twist rate cited. He posted a picture of one of his targets, there's a really decent group to right of center and a lot of strays.
 
No doubt that this fella is inconsistent. He showed up as a poor firearms enthusiast asking for advice. and then started posting about buying high dollar stuff. Don’t trust him myself, but others may have different opinions . . .

ArchAngelCD said:
I asked you this way back in Post #2 but you still haven't told us. With what weight bullet are you getting poor accuracy and what is the twist in your barrel?
Click to expand...
 
Steve912 said:
And yet, we all did, right?

Could you even qualify, if you missed all the 300 meter shots?
Click to expand...

Yes, the standard used to be 32 hits out of 40 for Expert. You had only three target exposures at 300 and five at 250. If your scorer was inattentive you could not fire at the 250 and 300 meter targets and save the ammo for a second shot on a closer target.

Nineteen hits made bare Marksman. With 5 targets at 50 meters, and 9 at 100 meters an halfway decent shot with an M1911 could get 14 hits pretty routinely. The remainder consisted of 10 targets at 150 and 8 at 200.

I know one tank company First Sergeant who parlayed that knowledge into some extra cash from the pocket of his Battalion Sergeant Major. It helps to have scoped out how high the front sight has to be held for 150 and 200 ahead of time. The groups are getting bigger than an E-type is wide so hitting is about 50-50. But you only need 4 to win the "I bet I can qualify on the M16 range with a 45 pistol," challenge. On my best day I broke into low Sharpshooter.

In 1983, the upped the standard, to 36-40 for Expert, 30-35 for Sharpshooter and Marksman from 23 to 29. It could still be done but getting to Sharpshooter was pretty tough.

The CSM might have done better had he paid attention to the 1SG's uniform. You generally only got one chance to issue that challenge in a unit, at least for money.
 

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Iron sights or scope?

Can make a BIG difference.
The percentage of the shooting population that can shoot under 12" to 16" groups with iron sights from a rest at 100 yards gets smaller every year.
 
old tanker said:
I know one tank company First Sergeant who parlayed that knowledge into some extra cash from the pocket of his Battalion Sergeant Major....
The CSM might have done better had he paid attention to the 1SG's uniform. You generally only got one chance to issue that challenge in a unit, at least for money.
Click to expand...

Heh...and how often do you find a CSM who doesn't have
an eye for uniforms?

I didn't see the attachment, and figured it'd be a Presidente's
Hunnert tab. Is that the current Pistole Experit badge?

10 meter targets--guess that was added from the MOUT
sandbox experience.

Regarding OP's question, it's "all the above", plus shooter,
plus light and wind conditions, etc, etc, etc. Wrong twist rate
will hamstring accuracy, more and more as distance increases.

I recollect the M16A1 with M193 as "3 to 5" inches at a 100
meters. It was an unwritten rule, if it's worth hitting, it's worth
hitting again---sight, squeeze, *sproing!*, sight, squeeze, *sproing!*...
 
All of the above plus several more-I'm no fan of this round or anything it is chambered for. Also-I don't remember the M-16 qualification being anything like the M-14 course, which was rigorous. I made expert by one hit at Ft. Bragg in 1969-and I earned it!
 
BC38 said:
Just curious as the the source of that statistic. Not disputing it, just wondering where it came from.
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Help out at the club range (non members welcome) on sighting in days for deer searson:) The most frequently heard comment: "I can't hit paper, but put hair on it and I can't miss."

I quit helping decades ago after seeing one guy drag a refrigerator carton out to 50 yards. He declared himself ready for deer season after he emptied his lever gun and got one hit. I did ask where he was going to hunt so I could stay out of that county.
 
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Steve912 said:
Heh...and how often do you find a CSM who doesn't have an eye for uniforms?

...Is that the current Pistole Experit badge?

...10 meter targets--guess that was added from the MOUT sandbox experience....
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It should have read 100 meters, not 10. EIC badge, the standard bolo badge hasn't changed.

But here is a "President's Hundred" tab and an Army Distinguished pistol badge.

Given my druthers, I'd have kept the A1 and M193 ball...sproing and all.
 

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Steve912 said:
...I recollect the M16A1 with M193 as "3 to 5" inches at a 100
meters. It was an unwritten rule, if it's worth hitting, it's worth
hitting again---sight, squeeze, *sproing!*, sight, squeeze, *sproing!*...
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Never having fired an M16A1, I have to ask, what is the *sproing*? Is that the noise of the spring in the buffer tube? Do modern AR-15s make the same noise? I've not fired one of those either - yet (soon to be remedied).
 
BC38 said:
Never having fired an M16A1, I have to ask, what is the *sproing*? Is that the noise of the spring in the buffer tube? Do modern AR-15s make the same noise? I've not fired one of those either - yet (soon to be remedied).
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Yes, that is the recoil spring. Part of the "if it's Mattel it's swell"
mystique of the AR.
 
shocker said:
Yes, that is the recoil spring. Part of the "if it's Mattel it's swell"
mystique of the AR.
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Interesting...
That doesn't sound like something I'd especially like.
I'm in the process of building my first AR from a kit.
Is there any way to eliminate or even deaden that sound if it bothers me?
 
old tanker said:
It should have read 100 meters, not 10. EIC badge, the standard bolo badge hasn't changed.

But here is a "President's Hundred" tab and an Army Distinguished pistol badge.

Given my druthers, I'd have kept the A1 and M193 ball...sproing and all.
Click to expand...

All I can say is, way cool Sir!
 
I'm not an AR15 enthusiast, but became curious about such guns several years ago. I bought three new Colt ARs, a 6920, an Expanse, and an A4, all with 1 in 7" barrels. The A4 has factory open sights, the other two guns are scoped. Except for the scopes and adding an aftermarket rear sight to the Expanse, the guns are straight out-of-the-box; no modifications.

I can't do better than about 3" groups at 100 yards with the aperture- sighted A4, but the scoped guns are capable of 1" or smaller groups at 100 yards. I can't do that nearly every time, like the Internet guys that have the "all day long" rifles, but I've seen enough small groups that I'd call these rifles accurate.

I bought a wide variety of factory bulk/ cheap ammo, 55-62 grs., when I got these guns and also tried some match stuff. The bulk/cheap stuff is a waste of time and money if you have a real interest in accuracy. Some of the match ammo shoots incredibly well, but it's expensive. Good handloads with 55-69 grain bullets will equal or exceed the accuracy of the best factory match ammo, but it takes a little work to get there, apparently something a lot of people have little interest in these days.

After market handguards, triggers, oddball scope reticles and high magnification have their place, but that's probably in the hands of experts only. Shooting skills and practice are far more important for the non-expert, like me.
 
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