.40 vs 9mm

Actually, the .40 S&W was designed to exploit the law enforcement market by fitting into a firearm frame size more people felt comfortable with.

I used to talk with an FBI agent who was involved in the development of the test protocol and the reasons behind it. Let's just say that pure reason and science isn't all that drove their standards.

I used to have an electronic copy of an FBI report that thoroughly debunked claims from an incident in PA where it was claimed that ammunition that met the FBI criteria had failed to adequately penetrate. [Imperative to protect the image & process, don't ya know.] Included autopsy x-rays clearly demonstrated that the actor used cover exceptionally well and all handgun hits were both peripheral and at an angle that couldn't strike immediate incapacitation zones. The conflict was resolved by 2 hits from .223/ 5.56 ammunition.

Handgun ammunition samples from the incident met FBI criteria. Samples of the .223/5.56 mm ammo that ended the fight didn't meet FBI criteria.
 
WR Moore said:
I used to have an electronic copy of an FBI report that thoroughly debunked claims from an incident in PA where it was claimed that ammunition that met the FBI criteria had failed to adequately penetrate. [Imperative to protect the image & process, don't ya know.] Included autopsy x-rays clearly demonstrated that the actor used cover exceptionally well and all handgun hits were both peripheral and at an angle that couldn't strike immediate incapacitation zones. The conflict was resolved by 2 hits from .223/ 5.56 ammunition.

Handgun ammunition samples from the incident met FBI criteria. Samples of the .223/5.56 mm ammo that ended the fight didn't meet FBI criteria.
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You mean the bad guys don't just stand there out of cover and concealment with handy indicators of their vitals on their clothes to help you aim? That's damned inconsiderate of them.:rolleyes::D
 
LVSteve said:
You mean the bad guys don't just stand there out of cover and concealment with handy indicators of their vitals on their clothes to help you aim? That's damned inconsiderate of them.:rolleyes::D
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I investigated an officer involved shooting...bad guy hit with 9mm, .40 S&W, and 5.56 who naturally survived. All decent torso hits, but he had the luck of the Devil.
 
With all the improvements with making SD bullets for all the Pistols and revolvers that people use in todays times,
along with the new powders and testing done by the companies that make the ammo,
we are in good hands.

Grandma, can choose from a 380, up to a 10mm pistol, if she thinks she needs it
to protect her children.

The ammo is that good.

So what is all this yelling all about?
 
Heinz said:
I would not belittle the 30 Luger. The Swiss used it for a long time and it is one of my favorites. The German military wanted a larger caliber, they did not believe in the higher velocity smaller diameter round. You need to shoot a 30 Luger to appreciate its qualities.
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Yep but it's a royal PITA to reload...neck tension vs thin brass is the problem. Rod
 
DR505 said:
I investigated an officer involved shooting...bad guy hit with 9mm, .40 S&W, and 5.56 who naturally survived. All decent torso hits, but he had the luck of the Devil.
Click to expand...

Know what you mean. LEO I used to see at bowling years ago was the primary shooter in an OIS where a guy was driving a truck at him. I saw pictures of the holes in the truck and decided either 1) the guy had a alien personal shield device or 2) he was dodging bullets like Neo from The Matrix. I don't think the perp even had a shrapnel mark on him.
 
Nevada Ed said:
With all the improvements with making SD bullets for all the Pistols and revolvers that people use in todays times,
along with the new powders and testing done by the companies that make the ammo,
we are in good hands.

Grandma, can choose from a 380, up to a 10mm pistol, if she thinks she needs it
to protect her children.

The ammo is that good.

So what is all this yelling all about?
Click to expand...

Indeed. For many this ammo war stuff is like a loose tooth, they just cannot leave it alone.
 
Most agencies adopted the 9MM for the same reason they adopted Glocks, They're cheap. Saves them money, that's it! A 357 Sig might be the best caliber for LEO use ever. A 40S&W and a 45ACP would be close seconds, a 9MM is last. Contrary to what sleepy Joe says, a 9 really isn't that great when compared to other options! A LEO, or anyone actually, should not draw their weapon unless things have gotten very serious in which case, they would need the most effective caliber available, that isn't a 9MM.
 
Most savvy, law-enforcement agencies were using hollow points in their revolvers in the late 1960s, but some stuck with round nose lead .38s because they didn’t really care or because of the horror stories of how cruel and inhumane it was to use hollow points. I remember how people frequently mentioned how it violated the Geneva convention. Semi auto’s were a different story and Colt 45’s, Walther P38s, Smith 39s, and Browning Hi Power’s wouldn’t feed most jacket hollowpoints. Gun manufacturers were slow to change back then, but it eventually happened and hollow points became the rage. Super Vel, Black Talon, Hydra Shok, Flying Ashtray, Golden Sabre and other new words were heard as HP ammo was constantly being improved. All the major ammo manufacturers continued to put research and development into new bullet designs and market them as the latest and greatest “must have” design. Many decades later I’m sure the 40 ammo is just fine now.
 
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LVSteve said:
Know what you mean. LEO I used to see at bowling years ago was the primary shooter in an OIS where a guy was driving a truck at him. I saw pictures of the holes in the truck and decided either 1) the guy had a alien personal shield device or 2) he was dodging bullets like Neo from The Matrix. I don't think the perp even had a shrapnel mark on him.
Click to expand...

Shooting at people in moving cars or trucks with small arms is a low-hit possibility proposition.
 
The 9mm cartridges are getting more improvements because that is the money maker caliber today. Buyers seem to flock to the new stuff.

It is selling into the market that is currently growing at a faster pace than others.
 
zeke said:
....

The ballistic and penetration tests are useful comparison devices, but imo they do not tell you what energy the bullet is carrying at certain distances through the gel. Nationwide standards seem to be based on being suitable nationwide, but am more concerned with suitability for NW Wi. So when warm weather is over and with it carrying a 1911 45 acp on a belt, a G23 goes into the front pocket.
Click to expand...

"Energy" has no bearing on terminal performance of the bullet.

Momentum is what gets the bullet to the target- bullet construction and design determine terminal performance.

Caliber has little to do with terminal performance or how lethal the bullet is.
 
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Farmer17 said:
Most savvy, law-enforcement agencies were using hollow points in their revolvers in the late 1960s, but some stuck with round nose lead .38s because they didn’t really care or because of the horror stories of how cruel and inhumane it was to use hollow points. I remember how people frequently mentioned how it violated the Geneva convention. Semi auto’s were a different story and Colt 45’s, Walther P38s, Smith 39s, and Browning Hi Power’s wouldn’t feed most jacket hollowpoints. Gun manufacturers were slow to change back then, but it eventually happened and hollow points became the rage. Super Vel, Black Talon, Hydra Shok, Flying Ashtray, Golden Sabre and other new words were heard as HP ammo was constantly being improved. All the major ammo manufacturers continued to put research and development into new bullet designs and market them as the latest and greatest “must have” design. Many decades later I’m sure the 40 ammo is just fine now.
Click to expand...

Remember Dad getting all the latest and greatest "Law Enforcement Only" ammo ...... mostly carried in his 30 year old .357 Colt/King's 6" New Service!
 
I'm not a believer in the "one shot stop"; it can happen but don't count on it ....... a double or triple tap of any of the above is, IMHO, superior to one round of any of them. So IMHO the fastest double/triple tap wins!

So 18+1 in my Beretta Centurion or 15+1 in the Compact are my choices.

That said I'm still really fond of my 34 year old .45 W. German Sig 220!

In my quiet "Burb of the Burgh" a 3913 with a spare mag or two has been GTG for the last 30 years!
 
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The 9mm bullet is about 355 thousands of an inch in diameter. If you think a bullet that is 45 thousands of an inch bigger, .355 vs .400 is going to knock someone down and stomp them compared to the 45 thousands smaller bullet.... then I doubt there's much anyone can tell you :rolleyes:
 
alwslate said:
The 9mm bullet is about 355 thousands of an inch in diameter. If you think a bullet that is 45 thousands of an inch bigger, .355 vs .400 is going to knock someone down and stomp them compared to the 45 thousands smaller bullet.... then I doubt there's much anyone can tell you :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Don't forget its 115/124 gr vs 180...... so 50-60% more mass..... IIRC; mass x velocity = the "Force/energy" an object applies to another object it come in contact with. So not just "thousands of an inch" issue.

Edit: Ballistics by the Inch...... all out of a 4" barrel;
9mm 300-450 f-lbs of energy
.40 S&W 360-540 f-lbs of energy
10mm 420-760 f-lbs of energy
.357 sig 480-600 f-lbs
.357 magnum 400-620 f-lbs [cylinder gap ?]
.
 
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BAM-BAM said:
Don't forget its 115/124 gr vs 180...... so 50-60% more mass..... IIRC; mass x velocity = the "Force/energy" an object applies to another object it come in contact with. So not just "thousands of an inch" issue.
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Yep that big old 40 that is barely 3/64" bigger in diameter has more energy than the puny nine, if velocity is equal. More force/energy, more "knock down power", sure. I wonder how many love the big old .40 and have a scale that has the very fine lines of 1/64ths of an inch can actually see how much 3/64ths is without reading glasses or a magnifying glass :rolleyes: Does the .40 actually achieve the same velocity with 180 gr bullets as the nine with 124 gr +P ammo. Not quite :o
 
alwslate said:
Yep that big old 40 that is barely 3/64" bigger in diameter has more energy than the puny nine, if velocity is equal. More force/energy, more "knock down power", sure. I wonder how many love the big old .40 and have a scale that has the very fine lines of 1/64ths of an inch can actually see how much 3/64ths is without reading glasses or a magnifying glass :rolleyes: Does the .40 actually achieve the same velocity with 180 gr bullets as the nine with 124 gr +P ammo. Not quite :o
Click to expand...

LOL I guess the argument is different when you use fractions vs thousands of an inch!

What about +P 9mm vs 10mm...... same bullets different velocity

So a .380 [9x17] and 9mm [9x19] have the same stopping power?

Just add 1/10 of an inch ( that's 100 thousands [aka, 1+ two 0s] for those of you in Rio Linda) and you've got a .50 cal. ; that will blow your arm clean off !!!!!!! ;)




See my post, #78, for my true feelings on this matter!!!

:)
 
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From my reloading manuals it looks like you have to drop bullet weight down to 135 grs in the 40 to get close to the velocity that the 9 achieves with 125 grs. That's std pressure 9, not +P. So the big bore 40 at 3/64ths larger dia and 10 grs heavier isn't much of a big bore. When you factor in +P 9s I guess the highest praise you can give to the 40 is that it's almost as good as the 9mm :D That should be reason enough to keep it around for awhile before it eventuality goes the way of other 40 caliber ctgs. :(
 
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