Can someone experienced please explain to me HOW 5.56 is a Varmint Cartridge?

BB57 said:

Thus the military is going with the new 6.8x51 round with a 135 gr bullet at a potential 3,000 fps. from a 16” barrel.

That’s a step in the right direction back toward the .280 British round that launched a 140 gr bullet at 2,550 fps. from the FN FAL. The .280 Brit is the round both NATO and the US should have adopted in place of 7.62x51 NATO. It had a .280” groove diameter (.284 land diameter) and the bullet had optimum tumbling / wounding characteristics long with suitably flat trajectory for infantry rifle use and recoil for full auto capability in an infantry rifle. If we had adopted it, we’d still be well equipped round wise today, whether it was used in a FAL, M14 or AR style rifle.

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If history is any indicator the XM1168 Common Cartridge still hotter than it needs to be. The lower pressure Sig .277 Fury civilian version of the round with a 130 bullet at 2750 fps in a 16” barrel and 3000 fps in a 24” barrel would probably be ideal for a select fire assault rifle, with a better balance of long range performance and full auto controllability.

But if anything the US military is a very, very slow learner when it comes to small arms acquisition.

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The villain in the 7.62 NATO debacle was one Col. Rene Studler. He had "not invented here" disease worse than almost any other human in history.

As for the 6.8x51 round, the requirement has been driven by the improvements in " peer opponents' " body armor and the reluctance to adopt a bullpup design. I get that by sticking with a 16" AR style design, retraining is minimal. However, to get the required ballistic performance they've had to go to an extreme pressure round, stretching materials and manufacturing technology. A bullpup would allow a 20" barrel in a weapon of the same overall length while achieving the required velocity with less pressure.

I read that some complain about the balance and length of pull of a bullpup. The first is a familiarity issue that would go away with use. The Croatians and Springfield have proved you can make a bullpup with an adjustable stock, so that is no longer a problem. Yes, some will whine that bullpups are ugly and unsuitable for "evolutions". All I can say to that is that "evolutions" does not appear on the "must have" list when it comes to a shooting war. Not needed on voyage.

I'll make a prediction: there will soon be calls to shorten the AR style 6.8x51 guns due to soldiers' complaints about embarking and egressing helicopters and armored vehicles. Then where will all that vaunted ballistic performance go?

Sorry for the thread drift.

Greyman50 said:

Seems OP has never shot any “ varmints” with a .223, DRT. Also has never seen an enemy shot by a 5.56.

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Evidently you did not read the OP, in which I explicitly stated as much.

Generally speaking, one does not ask questions in regards to subjects in which one is well versed.

223 for deer falls into same debate as 32acp for self defense. Can a 223 be used to kill deer? Absolutely. The police sharpshooters do it in next town over every couple years for population control because there’s no hunting allowed. Can a 32acp be used to kill an attacker? Absolutely. But in both cases there are better choices.

A simple answer to your question is that before the 5.56/.223 was born there were two common varmint ctgs. The .222 and .222 Magnum. The .223 sort of split the difference between the two and they quietly faded away.

I have to ask, why do you have a problem with it being called a varmint cartridge?
What is YOUR definition of a varmint cartridge?
Have you not ever talked to someone who is a varmint hunter, or read any constructive articles on how to choose a good varmint rifle and cartridge?
I suggest you give it a shot and come back in a few days and let us know what you found out?
You’re not just pulling our legs now, are you?

In SC, 6mm is the........

....smallest caliber you can use on whitetail. My BIL in Florida uses .22 cal rifles for deer. I think it depends on how good of a hunter you are. If you can avoid 'iffy' shots a .223 can do the job well, with the right bullet.

As far as varmints go, I would use a .223 rifle if it were set up and tuned up for such a task with good optics and with the lighter bullets.

The only limiting factor with the 223/5.56 is how far you can hit small critters, that dig holes, which can cause horses and cattle to break their legs.
The 22-250 and 220 Swift reaches out farther/faster and was the first choice of many Ranchers I shot with in the late '60s, while stationed at Castle.
Some favored the 25-06.

We have a No.1V in 223 with a 1:12 twist, a couple of Colts with a 1:7 twist and a Ruger AR that I've never used, as the kids bought it new in Colorado. Might be a 1:8 twist.

One day at the Western Nations, at El Monte in '68, a 12 year old boy, took the Masters and me to school, in 50/100 yard two man team smallbore. A hot windy day.
I just turned 21 and got my NCO stripes.... so real beer was OK.
Glad he was my team mate, and we each received a Pewter mug.

He got up most mornings, before school, and took care of the little critters, on the family's ranch, with his 22-250.
The kid would shoot them and the ranch hands would fill the holes.
He loved his horses and cattle.

Pic of the No.1V, which usually wears a T36 and a
WinMiroku in 45 Colt.

Bullet choice, powder and shot placement are important.
Those are a factory UMC 50gr HJP that I was curious as to what it would do to my metal target hanging clamp.
Pic #1 Entry.
Not legal in warfare but fine for many civilian uses.

We hunt with fishing rods so for bullet choice for food, I would consult experienced hunters and load as advised.
Doubt if the 223/5.56 would be my choice for hunting, but my
All SAC smallbore buddy, while we were burning bricks practicing, swung his iron sighted Anschutz rifle to the left side of the 100yd range, and popped a Rabbit at about 130 yds.
Head shot and dinner.
Learned how to dress and cook a rabbit.
My First Sergeant had already taught me how to turn a live pig into dinner and brew homemade beer.
Your tax dollars at work.

Pic #2
Exit.

I have 40, 45, 50, 55 and 70 grain bullets on hand since the late '70s, but always had 1:12 twist rifles.
After I finish the 460 loads/stocks, I'll get back to the 223/5.56 projects. Would like to make a bipod that fits inside the forearm.

The first time we saw/used M16s at Castle, was when the Base Armorer invited the smallbore team when they arrived.
The joke was that the rifle was developed for Airmen as the M14 was too heavy and recoiled far beyond what the weak and puny Airmen could handle.

Don't know why, occasionally, I can't load two pics
in the same post.

Forte Smitten Wesson said:

Evidently you did not read the OP, in which I explicitly stated as much.

Generally speaking, one does not ask questions in regards to subjects in which one is well versed.

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Point is you posted you never killed any varmints with .223/5.56. Have you seen a dead enemy killed by M-16?

Hunting and combat shooting are just different.

I can hunt whitetail with a 5.56 here in KY, but I generally choose not to. I want something that will drop a deer quickly with one shot, minimizing meat damage. My DMR style AR with 77gr ammo probably can do that, but, I have better options. I am probably only going to carry to rounds or so of ammo on me hunting on the farm, so the weight of rounds matters less.

For combat use, I used to carry somewhere between 8-12 30 round magazines depending on the mission. Daily patrol loadouts with modern gear were somewhere around 50-60#s total, so minimizing weight wherever possible was important. There generally was an expectation more than one round would be fired at targets. So, larger magazine capacity and low recoil for quick follow up shots was important.

Please post photos of these armor plated deer that are impervious to .223 rounds.

Your question seems to be a way of having others advise you without doing the research yourself. There are volumes of information available. Rifle weight, weight of extra ammunition, rate of fire and bullet selection all need to be taken into consideration.

Bald1 said:

223 for deer falls into same debate as 32acp for self defense. Can a 223 be used to kill deer? Absolutely. The police sharpshooters do it in next town over every couple years for population control because there’s no hunting allowed. Can a 32acp be used to kill an attacker? Absolutely. But in both cases there are better choices.

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Right

A 223 can and will kill a deer no doubt. However, there's a lot of "conditions" that need meet. Many, gosh probably nearing 40 years ago I watched a guy drop a deer with a 22-250 like a sack of taters at about 120 yards, barely moved, DRT as they say. 55 grain bullet probably 3.850 FPS at the muzzle. It slipped in between the ribs blew up the heart lungs and it was over in a split second.

Perfectly placed shot, deer standing still broadside in an open field on fairly level ground. He was unaware of our presence. Just perfect conditions.

You might shoot 5 deer in a row with a 223 caliber firearm with zero issues, if you're lucky? But the next 5 might all just be wounded and run into the next county? If conditions aren't "perfect". And there's a ton of issues that can crop up and complicate a shoot and then you're waaayyy better off with something bigger.

Miracle Man said:

Right

A 223 can and will kill a deer no doubt. However, there's a lot of "conditions" that need meet. Many, gosh probably nearing 40 years ago I watched a guy drop a deer with a 22-250 like a sack of taters at about 120 yards, barely moved, DRT as they say. 55 grain bullet probably 3.850 FPS at the muzzle. It slipped in between the ribs blew up the heart lungs and it was over in a split second.

Perfectly placed shot, deer standing still broadside in an open field on fairly level ground. He was unaware of our presence. Just perfect conditions.

You might shoot 5 deer in a row with a 223 caliber firearm with zero issues, if you're lucky? But the next 5 might all just be wounded and run into the next county? If conditions aren't "perfect". And there's a ton of issues that can crop up and complicate a shoot and then you're waaayyy better off with something bigger.

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The only "conditions" are proper shot placement! A poor shot with a .223 or a .30-06 is a poor shot and the animal will run. 90% of the shooters that I see at the range getting ready for deer season can't hit a "bull in the butt with a bass fiddle"! Sight alignment and trigger control will do the job, no matter the caliber.

A 22LR will kill a deer deader than a clam. It’s #1 choice of Poachers. They are not shooting for sport. They only take the sure shot. They only shoot once.
Moral of the story is : sitting in a stand shooting deer usually under 100yds
it really doesn’t matter what cartridge you use paired with 4 X 12 scope that is now standard deer shooting rig.
Jack OConnor once said that if you couldn’t go in the woods with a 30/30 and come out with a deer, you had no business in the woods. I think same applies to shooting deer with a scoped rifle from a stand at 100yds or less.
The cartridge shouldn’t matter if bullet choice is right.

Back in the late 60 Dad was helping out a neighbor Dairy farmer who had a permit to take Pa Whitetails in his fields.

Farmer gave Dad his son's [was in the RVN at the time} scoped varmint rifle in .222..... but forgot the magazine ...... so Dad had a single shot rifle. Dad dropped a nice doe at, a paced off, 170 yds with his one shot. DRT/dropped like a rock............ head shot just behind the left eye. As an aside the farmer hunted deer with a .32/??? lever action Winchester w/ iron sights as he limited his shots, in Penn's Woods, to short range as he hunted to put meat on the table


The lowly .22 mag has been a favorite pocher's round for 60 years. for deer here in Pa.

Also as just mentioned double taps and/or 3rd bursts are the way to go!


Often it's the Indian not the arrow that really matters.

Drm50 said:

A 22LR will kill a deer deader than a clam. It’s #1 choice of Poachers. They are not shooting for sport. They only take the sure shot. They only shoot once.

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A friend of mine hunted deer with a .22 single shot. This was when he was a teenager and was hunting for meat to help feed the his family. He shot them in the eye at close range. He was hunting in a National Forest that abutted his parents land. Shot placement! Yes, he was poaching, but for a good reason!

This was in Northern PA, so not small deer.

I shot deer on damage permits with varmit guns. My buddy was a school teacher who was expert sausage and jerky maker. He got us the gig from one of his students. He wanted no meat damage. We were shooting from rest with 222, 223, 243 and 270 loaded for varmits. No problem to hit a deer in the head at 100-150 which was average range. 243 & 270 would just about take their head off. By same token shooting deer at long distance with varmit bullets might not work out well. They will expand and stop before penetrating the hide & muscle.

Yes, cartidges in the energy class of the .223/5.56x45 mm are generally considered to be primarily suited for varmint/small game cartridges. However, even way back the .22 Savage High Power was used on big game with a degree of success. Probably by very skilled shots. As was the later .22 Swift. Not a great idea from the standpoint of ethical hunting, but allegedly the .222 sees a lot of use in subsistance hunting in remote areas like Alaska.

Now then, the concept of a.22 caliber as a service cartridge was birthed as a result of a study done on casualties in WW2 and maybe Korea. Something in the high 80% of casualties were from crew served weapons. Also, it was found that realistically, target acquisition with the Mark 1 eyeball alone was pretty much limited to 300 yards/meters. As was the combat hit capabability of the average infantry ah, person. They also wanted select fire as the studies showed that when under fire, the troops were much more likely to shoot back if they had a buzz gun. BTW, recall that wounding the opposition is preferable in the long term/big picture. Ties up more resources than the dead.

This resulted in the Light Rifle concept. Remington won the cartridge design contest. The three competitors for the rifle design were Remington, Winchester and Armalite. The Winchester design was heavily based on the M1 carbine, Armalites was felt to be a bit wierd, all had their fans. Adoption of the 7.62x51 mm cartridge by NATO pretty much killed the concept.

Short version of adoption is that SAC commander Curtis LeMay wanted something between the M1 carbine and M14 for his air base defense forces. The AR fit that bill and since he had his own budget, it got adopted. Special Forces were trying them out in limited quantities for their "advisors" in Southeast Asia. Elements of the regular army started clamoring for them, Secretary of Defense McNamara jumped on the bandwagon, short cutting the usual troop trials and procurement process.

Admittedly, for CQB work it's a much better tool than either the subgun or the full power infantry rifle. Unless you've got a sudden real need to rapidly peck through something like a concrete wall.