Weapon lights and lasers on M&P pistols... useless???

SoCalDep said:

Following my previous post, the next thought in my head is how do we integrate a pistol optic and iron sights and a laser… because I’m an advocate of iron sights on an optic-equipped pistol.

I think much of this discussion depends on use. For LE and specifically Special Weapons teams and hostage rescue or in specific close confines scenarios the pistol optic is the reliable always there sight. The laser (if activated depending on the pre-planned staging) is an “if I see it first’ way to increase speed of response in an environment (low or changing lighting conditions) where response time is increased due to diminished threat identification perception and (adding to the problem) diminished ability to obtain sight alignment… or an inability to bring the pistol to eye level at all.

For self defense it is much of the same, and the reality is that based on the context and distance of many self defense encounters, conventional sight alignment is difficult if not impossible. This doesn’t mean misses if one knows what they are doing, but the range isn’t like a two-way fight, and if one hasn’t the experience of a good amount of force-on-force or consistent (I learned from it enough to make a non-anecdotal opinion) gunfight experience, they can’t speak to really knowing what they are doing.

What does all my word salad mean?

The optic or irons are primary sights, but for many people, including those who don’t have a lot of experience, the laser is a big advantage.

For those who have a lot of skill, the pistol optic is the real 2020’s game changer and the laser, when integrated allows unconventional position shooting and faster “fairly” precise engagement at very close distrances where getting the pistol to eye level is slower than perceiving the laser dot.

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I've thought about this quite a bit and plan to tackle the subject this spring or summer on my Shield Plus if I can get it to a point where it's reliable. It's currently at S&W warranty for a 4th time in a row.

Dot confusion between the optic and laser would likely be an issue if they're the same color and the laser is on while the operator decides to look through the optic.

So to make it work, on my Shield want to try...

Direct milled Optic cut for the 507K ACSS Green.. It's a simple dot with an exterior circle outside the field of view that minimizes dot searching when the dot itself is outside the field of view.

TLR6 light which has a red laser

Iron sights that co-witness lower 1/5 to lower 1/3... I'm leaning towards something that's simply blacked out. My concern is that anything with color or anything that glows would create too busy of a sight picture.

Because of parralax due to distance from the bore, the laser would be zeroed at a closer range than the optic.

Contrasting colors between the dot and the optic should allow the user to discriminate between the two when both are visible through the optic.

TM44 said:

Why do you speak to everyone else as if they are idiots?

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I didn't take it that way at all. And I have been a gun nut for near 30 years and I am an engineer and very analytical.

Sometimes you explain your thought process in entirety to prevent folks from misunderstanding you. You cover all the bases so someone doesn't say "what about this" when you already considered that.

Also, you must consider, these forums are open to folks of all walks of life and experiences. A well written post may be helpful to that one person that is very new to firearms use etc that may not be as knowledgeable as you are.

I have to admit he brought up several good points and observations I hadn't considered.

Thanks CP!

Rosewood

I got the impression from some post that if you have a WML, you must have it on.

Just because you have a weapon light doesn't mean you have to turn it on while you are investigating in your house (or any other situation). You can have a handheld light and leave both off until they are needed. You can move around stealthily and only use it when the threat is engaged. For that matter, you may not need to turn the WML on in every situation. You use it when it is needed. If I am checking out a noise, I have the pistol with the weapon mounted light low ready in my strong hand (light off) and the handheld light in the weak hand to illuminate my path etc until I determine the weapon is needed.

Rosewood

While I have no skin in this game I think it all boils down to choice. I don't have any weapon mounted lights or lasers. Sure, I have flashlights around the house but that's it.

I don't like anything attached to my handguns that wasn't there originally, excluding aftermarket sights if they help with my aging eyes. The only "laser" I ever considered was the one from Lasermax because it replaced the guide rod with no external modifications to the firearm. Unfortunately the company doesn't make any for the firearms I have. For EDC, IMO, attaching more externals to a handgun just adds weight and awkwardness, not to mention (as has already been mentioned) different holsters to accommodate.

I'm all for it if someone else wants to put this stuff on their handguns but for me, the KISS principle is perfect the older I get. Heck, one of my sons loves all the extra doodads and has them on some of his handguns (the military will do that!).

Good points to ponder by all of you, none of us is ever fully educated on everything!

The guns I have lights on are stored in the house in certain locations and are not in holsters or cases. My toter guns only wear night sights.

Rosewoods

My nightstand gun is a full sized first gen. 10shot M&P 45. I do have a Crimson Trace Laser Grip Module on it (given to me as a Christmas gift) and a now discontinued Crimson Trace Light Guard mounted as well. In the same drawer is a Streamlight bright yellow (so it's hard to lose) PolyTac-X 600 lumen flashlight. I live alone, so if I light someone up with the weapon mounted light, they should not be in the house anyway. Searches inside and outside the house are done with the Streamlight but if I bring my weapon up, my natural grip will activate the weapon mounted light as well. My LE career was before weapon mounted lights were readily available so my early training and practice has ingrained the Harries flashlight technique and it is automatic for me.
My "Alamo" gun is a Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12Ga with a 1000 lumen Streamlight TL-Racker Forend Light installed.
Weapon mounted lights have their uses but they are not my sole method of illumination.

The Firstlight liberator STT is a great option if you don't want to muzzle sweep anything you don't intend to destroy, and you can bring up your pistol and still have a two handed grip while still keeping the light pointed downrange.

It also works great for walking your dog and hanging on to the leash while having a light handy.

I have one by my bedside as another option.

It's about that time...

I put some Frank's Sauce on a PBJ. Man, was it good!!!

Others likely have a different point of view on this.

I am very familiar with my house - designed it, built it and have lived in it for 17 years. And yet I STILL manage to make noise, and bump into things, when I walk around at night.

So, this notion of "stealthily investigating a noise in my house" don't hunt for me. Further, if a BG is already in my house, he/she (a) is now somewhat accustomed to seeing in the dark while my "just awakened from slumber" eyes aren't, and (b) may have just as acute, or perhaps more acute hearing than I do (again, because I've just awakened from slumber).

So, at least for me, all of the plusses that others say are on the side of the homeowner aren't. I assess it as unlikely that I can sneak up on the BG and get the lowdown on him/her. If so, then the only value from a flashlight would be its deployment to temporarily blind the BG, assuming I'm lucky enough to see the BG AND shine the light in his/her eyes. But even that is a debatable likelihood.

I DO know the locations of the valuable stuff a BG might be looking for, but the BG doesn't. But then that's not an advantage for me, because the BG doesn't know the layout of my home. Besides, I'm less interested in preventing valuables from being stolen, and much more interested in protecting the lives of my loved ones (and me).

No camera-attached pistols for me. The camera records certain FACTS, but ignores others (like sounds), completely ignores the context in which events occur, and thus presents, as "obvious," certain courses of action that, at the time, were anything BUT obvious.

My bride and I (each 75) rehearse what to do in the event of a break-in. When I yell at her to do so, she is to immediately drop spread eagled on the bedroom floor and stay there until/unless I instruct otherwise. My puppy, who is essentially deaf, most likely will remain asleep in the laundry room. So, if there is a break-in, the only person roaming around is a BG.

Then the Castle Doctrine kicks in.

No remorse from me. I believe in life after death, so I'd just be arranging the BG's meeting with our Maker a bit sooner than might otherwise be the case.

oworthsr said:

Others likely have a different point of view on this.

I am very familiar with my house - designed it, built it and have lived in it for 17 years. And yet I STILL manage to make noise, and bump into things, when I walk around at night.

So, this notion of "stealthily investigating a noise in my house" don't hunt for me. Further, if a BG is already in my house, he/she (a) is now somewhat accustomed to seeing in the dark while my "just awakened from slumber" eyes aren't, and (b) may have just as acute, or perhaps more acute hearing than I do (again, because I've just awakened from slumber).

So, at least for me, all of the plusses that others say are on the side of the homeowner aren't. I assess it as unlikely that I can sneak up on the BG and get the lowdown on him/her. If so, then the only value from a flashlight would be its deployment to temporarily blind the BG, assuming I'm lucky enough to see the BG AND shine the light in his/her eyes. But even that is a debatable likelihood.

I DO know the locations of the valuable stuff a BG might be looking for, but the BG doesn't. But then that's not an advantage for me, because the BG doesn't know the layout of my home. Besides, I'm less interested in preventing valuables from being stolen, and much more interested in protecting the lives of my loved ones (and me).

No camera-attached pistols for me. The camera records certain FACTS, but ignores others (like sounds), completely ignores the context in which events occur, and thus presents, as "obvious," certain courses of action that, at the time, were anything BUT obvious.

My bride and I (each 75) rehearse what to do in the event of a break-in. When I yell at her to do so, she is to immediately drop spread eagled on the bedroom floor and stay there until/unless I instruct otherwise. My puppy, who is essentially deaf, most likely will remain asleep in the laundry room. So, if there is a break-in, the only person roaming around is a BG.

Then the Castle Doctrine kicks in.

No remorse from me. I believe in life after death, so I'd just be arranging the BG's meeting with our Maker a bit sooner than might otherwise be the case.

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I can't disagree with anything you've said.

When there's no family members that need to be collected, I can't think of a single good reason to go sneaking around the house looking for the intruder, regardless of what weapon attachments or handheld tools such as a flashlight are present.

In a home invasion, I believe the best thing to do is hide behind cover or in concealment, while armed, with 911 already on the phone. Perhaps a good role for the unarmed spouse is to handle the 911 call. Beyond that, sit there and wait. In this scenario, you've set a counter-ambush of sorts, and you have the advantage.

It's wise to have something that can be moved to block or slow the opening of a door. The bad guy doesn't know what room you're in and if the door is closed, he's going to have to open it. If it's a locked bedroom door, he's going to have to get through it. All of that takes time away from him and gives it to you.

When kids or family members need to be collected, the layout of some homes is poor from a defensive perspective... especially if the kids are downstairs and you're upstairs. I feel that with family members as part of the equation, having some kind of weapon light or flashlight is almost mandatory... what if there is an intruder but the person who comes around the corner is a family member? Obviously a lot of families practice what to do in a home invasion scenario but a lot don't.

After shooting for 50+ years with irons only, except for the scope on my hunting rifle, I purchased a Shield 9 1.0 with a CT LL-801G laser/light for EDC in 2015. Being totally unfamiliar with the use of the laser/light, although I already carried a small tactical light, I sought professional training on the laser/light's proper use. I asked around at my club and, almost unanimously, most of the members who used them directed me to the same training. I signed up for a class later that month. The training was excellent! One of the many things emphasized was that premature activation of the laser or light can make one an easy target for an attacker. Another caveat was to continue to carry my small tactical light. I have since added 2 new EDC pistols with red dots to my collection and took training on red dot use as well. Those trainings and frequent practice have improved my perceptions and abilities regarding defensive encounters. Just my opinion.

Edit to correct auto correct

A lot of really good thoughts in the last several posts... from people who prefer nothing but night sights to people who are using dots, lasers, and lights.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer... there are too many variables and then add in personal preference.

Last night was a great example of how my decisions have been made for a while... I go through stages where I'll shoot Berettas, then maybe I feel bad for my Glocks and shoot them for a few months, then I go back to M&Ps, then my go-to 1911s... Since October of 2022 I've been shooting almost exclusively 1911 or 2011 pistols. Mostly 2011 until around August, and since then I've been back shooting mostly iron sighted 1911s. I've carried an iron sighted 1911 exclusively since the end of September. I feel confident that even though I don't perform as well as I do with a dot (I've got enough data to say that without doubt), I perform well enough to be confident and I absolutely love the 1911. Since I'm retired I do what I like.

But last night was the city's Christmas Parade... I went with my wife and our three kids (17, 11, and 8). So yesterday afternoon I pulled the Staccato C2 out of the safe and carefully cleaned and lubricated it. I'd confirmed zero with the Holosun EPS Carry that's mounted on it at the range a couple weeks ago. I put my Streamlight TLR-7A on the rail and then practiced draws for a while with the clothes I'd be wearing. I also switched out my normal hand-held light, a Surefire Stiletto, for a Surefire Tactician... The light has a bit more but not a ton... mostly because I knew the batteries were fresh in the Tactician.

I'd been doing some dry-fire presentations for the past few days and felt very comfortable with the dot. It was the first time carrying appendix in several months and I'm certainly not used to it any more... I may have to order a hip IWB for the C2... but it will be without the light. Most of the time I don't think a WML is necessary for a carry gun. The parade, or a trip to the movie theater, are examples of exceptions and for those I'll deal with the discomfort of the AIWB I already have.

For home defense I would love to use my Staccato with the Aimpoint ACRO and Surefire X400G Turbo and could just as easily use my 5" M&P 2.0 Pro series with Apex barrel, Trijicon SRO, and Streamlight TLR2, but my wife is used to Berettas and doesn't shoot dots so our HD pistol is my very well used M9A1 with a Streamlight TLR2G and the Contour switch. Using the right key combined with a bit of skateboard tape at the top of the frontstrap the M&P contour switch fits the Beretta almost perfectly.

As for hand-held lights I have several positioned all over the home. I feel that no matter what is or is not on the pistol, a flashlight gives the user the ability to manipulate the environment and ensure situational awareness, and one can't have too many...

Today I'll be back to a traditional-style 1911 in a TT Gunleather Reinforced IWB which is super comfortable. It may not be the most high-speed, but it's what I like, and it's enough.

I've got one handgun with a WML, an early .40 S&W M&P 1.0 with a TLR-1. It lives in my nightstand. I take it out a couple of times a year and put 50-100 rounds through it, taping over the lens so it doesn't get powder residue all over it, clean it, load it with fresh ammo, and put it back.

I've taken a few low/no-light classes with it as one of the guns I used, the other being one without a light to be shot with a hand-held flashlight. Cleaning a plate rack at night with the WML is a cheat code.

I'll be 72 next week. My daughter and grandson live with me. My house is small and there are small lamps that are kept on overnight so I'd be able to tell if that noise is them or someone else without the WML. If it's someone else, the splash from the WML at low ready will show what's in his hands and help him him decide that maybe he should go out the door he used to come in.

When I'm awake, I'm armed unless I'm somewhere it's prohibited. I also have a small flashlight clipped next to my pocket knife...and the light gets used more often than the knife, which surprised me when I started carrying it. At my age, I'm rarely out at night, and when I am it's in a relatively well-lit area like a parking lot. If it's at all dim where I am, the flashlight is in my off hand. I see no need for one on my carry gun.

I have several Streamlight TLR-4 light/lasers on some of my handguns.
Rather have them than not have them. Compared to the cost of a new handgun & ammo they're not expensive to me.
I'm not shooting an unidentified sillouette in my own house. I'd rather get shot than shoot one of my own.

I've heard dozens of arguments pro & con, you can imagine any scenario where it's an advantage or disadvantage to have a light/laser. I'd rather have it and decide in the moment if it's needed.

Mine run off CR123 batteries, both of mine have very long shelf & run time but I swap batteries once/year, they're cheap.