I think I understand the 'scout rifle' concept, but.......

rwsmith · Nov 10, 2024

The Romantic scenario........

I'm a scout, a guide and I escort parties of hunters through dangerous terrain inhabited by dangerous animals. I need a light gun because I must always have it at the ready, hanging in my Ching sling in case we are attacked by a herd of mountain lions or wild pigs, or wolves, or bears. I need to be able to empty my magazine and reload quickly with rounds in stripper clips. The men in my party depend on me for their safety. In my rugged backwoods hunting gear and hat three sizes to big, I ride on my trail mule, "Ole Blood and Guts". If I see an animal 500 yards away, getting ready to attack, I need to fell it with one shot, therefore my cartridge of choice is a .308, good for anything in North America with a heart or head shot and my long eye relief 6x scope makes such a shot easy. If a predator breaks out of the brush in a charge, I switch to my ghost ring sights and rapid fire until the threat is stopped.

Am I on the right track? I have a feeling that this makes for better writing or beer hall stories than it does in reality.

6string · Nov 10, 2024

rwsmith said:
I'm a scout, a guide and I escort parties of hunters through dangerous terrain inhabited by dangerous animals. I need a light gun because I must always have it at the ready, hanging in my Ching sling in case we are attacked by a herd of mountain lions or wild pigs, or wolves, or bears. I need to be able to empty my magazine and reload quickly with rounds in stripper clips. The men in my party depend on me for their safety. In my rugged backwoods hunting gear and hat three sizes to big, I ride on my trail mule, "Ole Blood and Guts". If I see an animal 500 yards away, getting ready to attack, I need to fell it with one shot, therefore my cartridge of choice is a .308, good for anything in North America with a heart or head shot and my long eye relief 6x scope makes such a shot easy. If a predator breaks out of the brush in a charge, I switch to my ghost ring sights and rapid fire until the threat is stopped.

Am I on the right track? I have a feeling that this makes for better writing or beer hall stories than it does in reality.

Haha! You’re conclusion is spot on!

Personally, when Jeff Cooper, through his old Guns & Ammo column, put forth “his idea” about the scout rifle, (conveniently glossing over historical fact), it all sounded to me like a publicity stunt set up for a new product.

petepeterson · Nov 10, 2024

kaaskop49 said:
Agree. IIRC, the Scout rifles from back then were expensive, in the $2,000 range. While not a rifleman, I thought wouldn't a surplus military bolt action serve just as well. Something along the lines of a Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine. A lot less expensive in those days, for sure.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I bought some ammo off of a gent that showed me his Krag 30-40 done up as a Scout. Nifty little thing, and quick to reload.

BillBro · Nov 10, 2024

TheTinMan said:
An Extended eye relief scope with 2-3x magnification makes it easier to shoot with both eyes open. Try doing that with a 2x Lyman Alaskan…

I am certain that Jeff Cooper would’ve loved the optics options we have today. Red dots but especially the low magnification prism sights. I find those even easier to shoot with both eyes open.

Except for sitting at a bench trying to make itty bitty groups I always shoot two eyes open. The scout scope Id think is meant to be shot like that too. Snap shooting, reflex or point, whatever you want to call it is better and easier done two up. You have two eyes, use 'em.

BAM-BAM · Nov 10, 2024

BillBro said:
Except for sitting at a bench trying to make itty bitty groups I always shoot two eyes open. The scout scope Id think is meant to be shot like that too. Snap shooting, reflex or point, whatever you want to call it is better and easier done two up. You have two eyes, use 'em.

The "Scout Rifle "concept....... IMHO went the way of the Dodo with the introduction of the red-dot sights.

rockquarry · Nov 10, 2024

BAM-BAM said:
The "Scout Rifle "concept....... IMHO went the way of the Dodo with the introduction of the red-dot sights.

An aperture sight should work at least as well if you're shooting at distances under 200 yards and it requires no batteries.

BAM-BAM · Nov 10, 2024

rockquarry said:
An aperture sight should work at least as well if you're shooting at distances under 200 yards and it requires no batteries.

True..... but I do like the red-dot concept for under 200. Many of my rifles have Skinner back up iron sights.

i'm also fond of the Small Leupold 1-3/4-20 scopes

LVSteve · Nov 10, 2024

Long-eye relief scopes are handy for mounting in place of the stock rear sight of many milsurps. The result looks like a scout rifle, but usually is not because of weight. It does avoid having to drill and tap a collectible firearm.

SnidelyWhiplash · Nov 10, 2024

I had a friend (now deceased) who not only knew Jeff Cooper well but was one of his instructors at Gunsite. When asked about Cooper's Scout Rifle concept he really didn't get why Cooper was so hung up on the concept and came up with some arbitrary specs for it.

Cooper was opinionated and lent a great deal of knowledge and tactics to the shooting sports...but he wasn't a magician or prophet but I think most would feel he had some brilliant insights. He had many great takes on the subject but some may make one shake your head. It's like a buffet regarding his thoughts and opinions...you pick and choose which you like and want to integrate into your own training and practice regimen.

THE PILGRIM · Nov 10, 2024

Was the Scout intended for Military or Civilian use?
RW probably knows the answer, but he’s out somewhere in the Boonies,
No Cell Coverage.
We got to him a Satellite Telephone!

BB57 · Nov 10, 2024

SnidelyWhiplash said:
I had a friend (now deceased) who not only knew Jeff Cooper well but was one of his instructors at Gunsite. When asked about Cooper's Scout Rifle concept he really didn't get why Cooper was so hung up on the concept and came up with some arbitrary specs for it.

Cooper was opinionated and lent a great deal of knowledge and tactics to the shooting sports...but he wasn't a magician or prophet but I think most would feel he had some brilliant insights. He had many great takes on the subject but some may make one shake your head. It's like a buffet regarding his thoughts and opinions...you pick and choose which you like and want to integrate into your own training and practice regimen.

That’s accurate. And it holds true today for most tactical whatever instructors.

They need a gimmick to sell beyond the basic fundamentals, whether they make any real sense or not, or whether they offer any real practicality outside of niche military or law enforcement situations, and more often than not those tactics are transient and evolving.

CMudrock · Nov 11, 2024

Here is a rifle pertinent for this discussion since it uses a long eye relief scope (more out of convenience than necessity)I put this together using a rescued 1943 Mosin Nagant barrelled action, & used parts I found. I had plenty of 7.62x54R for my Romanian PSL rifle, & it was a very interesting project, Featuring Archangel stock, Timney Trigger, Pistol scope on original rear sight mount with up to 100yd iron sight below scope. It is very accurate & big noisy fun. that out-performs its cost.

BB57 · Nov 11, 2024

C said:
Here is a rifle pertinent for this discussion since it uses a long eye relief scope (more out of convenience than necessity)I put this together using a rescued 1943 Mosin Nagant barrelled action, & used parts I found. I had plenty of 7.62x54R for my Romanian PSL rifle, & it was a very interesting project, Featuring Archangel stock, Timney Trigger, Pistol scope on original rear sight mount with up to 100yd iron sight below scope. It is very accurate & big noisy fun. that out-performs its cost.

The long eye relief scope doesn’t make it a scout rifle. It’s too long, too heavy and has an over magnified optic.

The muzzle brake is also a really bad idea for field use, particularly as envisioned for a team or 2 or 3.

LVSteve · Nov 11, 2024

C said:
Here is a rifle pertinent for this discussion since it uses a long eye relief scope (more out of convenience than necessity)I put this together using a rescued 1943 Mosin Nagant barrelled action, & used parts I found. I had plenty of 7.62x54R for my Romanian PSL rifle, & it was a very interesting project, Featuring Archangel stock, Timney Trigger, Pistol scope on original rear sight mount with up to 100yd iron sight below scope. It is very accurate & big noisy fun. that out-performs its cost.

Building that piece using an already bubba'd Mosin looks like fun. Obviously, results will vary depending on the wear and tear suffered by the action before you got it.

I have two or three 91/30 stock sets that I scored cheap at an auction, but so far no donor actions at sensible prices have crossed my path.

rwsmith · Nov 11, 2024

I prefer....

BillBro said:
Except for sitting at a bench trying to make itty bitty groups I always shoot two eyes open. The scout scope Id think is meant to be shot like that too. Snap shooting, reflex or point, whatever you want to call it is better and easier done two up. You have two eyes, use 'em.

I prefer to shoot offhand unless I'm sighting something. And if I can brag, I'm a terrific flash shooter. I had a LOT of practice in my teenage years on my treks through the woods shooting at anything that looked shootable. That's about all I can do really well, though.

K Harris · Nov 11, 2024

It is my understanding that an intermediate eye relief scope will work for some folks but not others. I am not talking about just simply disliking it out on the barrel, but the way a persons brain processes the image. Apparently, Col. Cooper had the ability to see through this type of sight with absolute clarity. I have been told some people get "lost" in it and cannot resolve the image. I do not have first hand experience with the IER scope, but this is what I was told by someone who does. This has nothing to do with the washed out image when the sun is behind you that so many people complain about.

cmansguns · Nov 12, 2024

I'm with the "original" scout rifle!

Give or take some 65 years ago as a teenager, hunting white-tail along the hills and ridge lines of NY/Pennsy woods things were steep, slippery, dense brush and to me there was no better rifle ever devised than a Winny 94 in 30-30.

Especially if you were lucky enough to a: get the shot and bag a buck and b: after field dressing and now to drag him out and down (sometimes had to go a little ways up in order to get down....if you know what I mean). That rifle was light enough for one hand carry while the other hand is dragging the deer.

Also...if the Winchester lever rifle was good enough for the original real, Native American scouts....who am I to argue!

I really don't know about optics as I never came across any use for them in dense brush gun situations.

BB57 · Nov 12, 2024

THE PILGRIM said:
Was the Scout intended for Military or Civilian use?
RW probably knows the answer, but he’s out somewhere in the Boonies,
No Cell Coverage.
We got to him a Satellite Telephone!

It was intended to be for primarily civilian use for both hunting and tactical use. Think of it as a SHTF rifle, before the term was popularized, but more practically centered on hunting and long range accuracy that what people choose for a SHTF rifle today.

——

It’s day as a popular fad has come and gone, but it’s still effective for what it was designed to do.

So of course is the Winchester Model 94. Over 7 million of them made and it’s arguably taken more deer than any other rifle in the US, with the Marlin 36/336 lever action taking a close second. They are by no means new technology but they still do what they were designed to do extremely well - like the Scout rifle.

That’s separate from current popularity.

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BB57 · Nov 12, 2024

K Harris said:
It is my understanding that an intermediate eye relief scope will work for some folks but not others. I am not talking about just simply disliking it out on the barrel, but the way a persons brain processes the image. Apparently, Col. Cooper had the ability to see through this type of sight with absolute clarity. I have been told some people get "lost" in it and cannot resolve the image. I do not have first hand experience with the IER scope, but this is what I was told by someone who does. This has nothing to do with the washed out image when the sun is behind you that so many people complain about.

In order to work the magnification has to be pretty minimal, on the order of 1x, 1.5x, or 2x.

Way back in the day (1970) the single point sight was used by the military. It didn’t have an objective lens but instead used a fiber optic to gather light to display a 16 MOA dot on a black background in front of the shooters dominant eye. With both eyes open the dot was then superimposed on what was seen by the shooter’s non dominant eye.

Both a more modern red dot sight and a long eye relief low magnification scope work the same way, provided the magnification is kept very low so the brain can reconcile and integrate both images.

SnidelyWhiplash · Nov 12, 2024

BB57 said:
That’s accurate. And it holds true today for most tactical whatever instructors.

They need a gimmick to sell beyond the basic fundamentals, whether they make any real sense or not, or whether they offer any real practicality outside of niche military or law enforcement situations, and more often than not those tactics are transient and evolving.

Gun writers need to have something to talk about and keep their name in the public...it's their brand and they need to stay relevant.

I've always enjoyed Mas Ayoob's writings. His In the Gravest Extreme should be required reading for anyone interested in self-defense. It's still relevant today even though some hardware has evolved since it was first written. But I don't agree with everything he says...but I also don't write books or serve as an expert witness as he does. His influence on the serious subject of armed self-defense cannot be underestimated.

The same goes for other writers...no matter how influential they are or were. Bill Jordan...Chuck Taylor...Elmer Keith...Ray Chapman and others all have gravitas and influence. We each take not account what works for us and integrate into our training. Since some of those were active the laws have changed regarding the subject...so tactics must change with it.

I think I understand the 'scout rifle' concept, but.......

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