32-20 ship date query for great-grandfather's revolver

I believe I've done all the research I can do on my own.
This forum has been an amazing resource, and I've taken notes from many other posts.

I believe the revolver is a Smith & Wesson .32-20 Hand Ejector of 1905, 4th Change, based on research I have done in this and other forums.
I've seen 1905 and M&P used a lot; could someone educate me on how to spot the difference?
Could someone provide me with an educated guess at the ship date range, please?

Barrel: 5"
Shots: 6
Type: Hand ejector
Sights: Fixed
Finish: Blue - I think... it is a lot worse off if it is Nickel

SN: 106487

The gun originally belonged to my wife's great-grandfather, who passed it down to her grandfather. His wife, my wife's grandmother, entrusted it to me for research and to get the gun out of their house.

My wife's grandfather is in his 90s and in some stage of Alzheimer's disease or dementia, which is why they wanted the gun out of the house. He knows I have the gun, and he asks about it every time he recognizes me, so he is still there to a degree. However, he also confuses us, including his wife of 75+ years (they married YOUNG), with his 5 previously passed siblings, other family members, strangers, etc. My point is that I've been rushing to gather the information while he still has moments of lucidity and before he is no longer with us.

It needs a good cleaning, but I can also see some rust, so I may take it somewhere rather than do it myself. It also appears that it may have previously been chemically treated for rust, at least I think I'm seeing past rust pitting and treatment.

My current plan is to give them my research and the SCSW, 5th ed., for Father's Day (a gift for the whole family, really). The information will go into the grandmother's family history binders, and the SCSW and gun will pass down to my mother-in-law, my wife, etc. I'll also assist them in requesting the "Factory Letter," but I know that will take some time to receive.

Any additional information is appreciated.

Thank you!

Nice old family relic. The 4th edition just says about 1915-1940. I have no doubt somebody will come along shortly with much better info. You want to be very judicious about overly vigorous cleaning. At some point you will have to make a decision about preservation versus restoration.

Sorry about your wife's grandfather's condition. It is nice you are making what connections you can while you can.

Welcome to the Forum. You did a great job identifying your revolver. A couple features allow people to ID this era gun's ship date withing a couple years. Early in the 1920s, the factory started to stamp MADE IN USA on the right side of the frame under the cylinder. It was started by 1922. The stocks are walnut service diamond without medallions, which was introduced in 1920 and they are likely original. You can check the inside of the right stock for either a pencil or stamped serial number, which if pencil could have been wiped away over the decades.

The term Model 1905 indicates the model was introduced with an engineering change in 1914. There were some changes to the mechanism, including the installation of a hammer block to make the revolver safer to carry. The Model 1905 was thought by many as the introduction of the square butt, but there were square butt revolvers made before the official launch of the Model 1905 which collectors call Model 1902. The round butt continued to be made after 1905 and is often called by authors and collectors as Model 1905 as well. The company maintained the differences, noting Model 1902 and Model 1905 for many years in their catalogs. Complicated subject as you can tell.

The Military & Police moniker was introduced by the company around the time of the 4th Change To increase the appeal of this model to law enforcement. Early 32 Winchester and 38 Special revolvers were called just "Military" that was to appeal to the governments for military use. Unfortunately, there were only a few thousand 38 Military revolvers purchased by the US military.

glowe said:

Welcome to the Forum. You did a great job identifying your revolver. One feature allows people to ID this gun's ship date withing a couple years. Early in the 1920s, the factory started to stamp MADE IN USA on the right side of the frame under the cylinder. It was started by 1922. The stocks are walnut service diamond without medallions, which was introduced in 1920 and they are likely original. You can check the inside of the right stock for either a pencil or stamped serial number, which if pencil could have been wiped away over the decades.

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Thank you for the response!
Hand-written pencil SN is still on the right stock.

robertrwalsh said:

Nice old family relic. The 4th edition just says about 1915-1940. I have no doubt somebody will come along shortly with much better info. You want to be very judicious about overly vigorous cleaning. At some point you will have to make a decision about preservation versus restoration.

Sorry about your wife's grandfather's condition. It is nice you are making what connections you can while you can.

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Thank you for the kind words.
Your insight on cleaning or restoring is appreciated, and why I'm hesitant to try anything myself.
I have a family member who worked in an armory.
I'm hoping he has some reputable contacts in the area and we can get multiple opinions before deciding what to do.
Thank you!

In comparison I offer some pictures of my 32-20 Hand Ejector, Model 1905. Mine is serial number 105093 and mine shipped from the factory in October of 1921 per Dr. Roy Jinks the S&W Historian. Note the small S&W logo on the left side of frame and NO "made in USA" roll stamp on the right side of the frame. Note my grips are the same as yours. Note also when the hammer is all the way back (cocked) its position is known as the "long action". My guns cosmetic condition is about the same as yours without any pitting, of which I do see some along your barrel, but personally I would not do anything with it, as any "repair", "refinish" will probably diminish what value these old guns have. I have my gun valued at $700 for insurance purposes.

With respect to actually shooting these guns, unless you are a hand loader, the ammo is hard to find and expensive when you do. My indoor range around here will not allow any lead ammo anymore so I have had to find an outdoor range, but I did find the gun to be quite accurate and a lot of fun (basically little to no recoil) to shoot.

Yours being a family heirloom you'll probably want to keep it as is but that's just my 2 cents worth.

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Other .32-20 M&P's with serials around yours were shipping in late 1921 and early 1922. The letter will give you a precise date.

Oops. Cmansguns posted while I was typing.

Wiregrassguy said:

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Other .32-20 M&P's with serials around yours were shipping in late 1921 and early 1922. The letter will give you a precise date.

Oops. Cmansguns posted while I was typing.

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Thank you for the response and estimated ship date range. Much appreciated!

I would just suggest a good cleaning and lubrication. YouTube has some excellent videos on cleaning revolvers.

Personally, I would not shoot a 100 year old revolver because I have newer revolvers I can shoot.

Welcome to the Forum. Sorry to hear of your wife's granddaddy's condition.

Georgia Arms has .32-20 ammo for sale for $42 @ 50 rounds.

.32-20 revolvers are fun to shoot.

Welcome to the Forum! As you know, you've inherited a nice vintage .32-20 M&P from the early 20s. Yours is just a little older than my 6" bbl. version (s/n 118705, ca. 1923). You can tell because as glowe says, yours doesn't have the one-line "MADE IN USA" stamp on the right side, and the right side of the barrel is marked ".32 W.C.F. CTG". My 1923 has the one-liner, and is stamped ".32-20 CTG". Both have the mushroom shaped large ejection rod knob (LERK) which was changed on later versions. It looks like your revolver is in need of some TLC, and you can DIY. Just use some Flitz Polish and a microfiber cloth to gently remove any surface rust, and follow up with some good quality wax. However, if you're hesitant to do the work yourself and have some contacts, they should be able to clean it up for you. You may even want them to remove the right sideplate and clean/lubricate the innards, too. It's a fine family heirloom with plenty of provenance, and the family should enjoy it for another 100 years!

Not to confuse things, but S&W did not catalog your revolver as a Model of 1905 at that time. It dropped that terminology around 1915. Thereafter it cataloged and advertised them as the .32-20 Military and Police Model, Square Butt. Regardless, many collectors prefer using the “Model of 1905” fourth change, as a descriptor for M&P revolvers made up until WWII even though S&W did not. I suppose that is mainly because there were very few minor manufacturing changes made to the revolver itself between 1915 and 1940. You can call it whichever name you prefer.

There were also very similar S&W .32-20 and .38 Special revolvers but having round butts instead of square. Prior to about 1915, S&W cataloged those as the “Model of 1902”. Prior to 1902, the initial S&W K-frame revolver design was called the “Model of 1899.” Don’t get carried away by those “changes” or how many screws a revolver has. Those are simply descriptive collector-speak terms regarding evolutionary internal mechanism design changes and are unrelated to the model name.

When I have this situation or similar, I use a tough plastic freezer bad and soak it in a detergent oil or atf for some week or two.
Never had nickel so can't say if it will harm nickel

Kivaari said:

When I have this situation or similar, I use a tough plastic freezer bad and soak it in a detergent oil or atf for some week or two.
Never had nickel so can't say if it will harm nickel

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Thanks for the tip!

DWalt said:

Not to confuse things, but S&W did not catalog your revolver as a Model of 1905 at that time. It dropped that terminology around 1915. Thereafter it cataloged and advertised them as the .32-20 Military and Police Model, Square Butt. Regardless, many collectors prefer using the “Model of 1905” fourth change, as a descriptor for M&P revolvers made up until WWII even though S&W did not. I suppose that is mainly because there were very few minor manufacturing changes made to the revolver itself between 1915 and 1940. You can call it whichever name you prefer.

There were also very similar S&W .32-20 and .38 Special revolvers but having round butts instead of square. Prior to about 1915, S&W cataloged those as the “Model of 1902”. Prior to 1902, the initial S&W K-frame revolver design was called the “Model of 1899.” Don’t get carried away by those “changes” or how many screws a revolver has. Those are simply descriptive collector-speak terms regarding evolutionary internal mechanism design changes and are unrelated to the model name.

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Thank you for the insight on 1905 vs. M&P terminology. That was just the thing I needed on that topic. Much appreciated!

Could someone clarify this information for me?

per Smith-wessonforum.com

Manufacture Year by Serial Number
"K" Frame Revolvers - 1899 to 1983:
(Years/Serial Number Range)
Pre-War Years:
1899-1902...........1-20,975
1902-1903...........20,976-33,803
1903-1905...........33,804-62,449
1905-1906...........62,450-73,250
**1906-1908...........73,251-120,000
1908-1909...........120,001-146,899
1909-1915...........146,900-241,703

What "K" Frame Revolvers does this reference?

By this, serial number 106487 would fall into a manufacturing date range of 1906 to 1908.
However, the barrel of serial number 106487 has "DEC.29.14." stamped into its patents, so it could be from 1908... or at least not the barrel.
Is that just the K frame itself?

I understand this has nothing to do with the shipping date, just trying to understand that information.

LOTS of very interesting, but confusing, information at times.

Thanks!

Hawg Rider said:

Welcome to the Forum! As you know, you've inherited a nice vintage .32-20 M&P from the early 20s. Yours is just a little older than my 6" bbl. version (s/n 118705, ca. 1923). You can tell because as glowe says, yours doesn't have the one-line "MADE IN USA" stamp on the right side, and the right side of the barrel is marked ".32 W.C.F. CTG". My 1923 has the one-liner, and is stamped ".32-20 CTG". Both have the mushroom shaped large ejection rod knob (LERK) which was changed on later versions. It looks like your revolver is in need of some TLC, and you can DIY. Just use some Flitz Polish and a microfiber cloth to gently remove any surface rust, and follow up with some good quality wax. However, if you're hesitant to do the work yourself and have some contacts, they should be able to clean it up for you. You may even want them to remove the right sideplate and clean/lubricate the innards, too. It's a fine family heirloom with plenty of provenance, and the family should enjoy it for another 100 years!
View attachment 764113View attachment 764114View attachment 764115

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Thank you for the information and photos. That is a great-looking revolver!

The table of K frame revolvers you refer to is for .38 Special hand ejectors. .32-20 Hand Ejectors are also made on the K frame but have their own separate serial number sequence that overlaps with other models. On older models, you can't just use the serial number to pin down a date. You have to know what model it is first so you can select the correct table. That's one of the reasons we ask to see pictures of the gun.

cmansguns said:

In comparison I offer some pictures of my 32-20 Hand Ejector, Model 1905. Mine is serial number 105093 and mine shipped from the factory in October of 1921 per Dr. Roy Jinks the S&W Historian. Note the small S&W logo on the left side of frame and NO "made in USA" roll stamp on the right side of the frame. Note my grips are the same as yours. Note also when the hammer is all the way back (cocked) its position is known as the "long action". My guns cosmetic condition is about the same as yours without any pitting, of which I do see some along your barrel, but personally I would not do anything with it, as any "repair", "refinish" will probably diminish what value these old guns have. I have my gun valued at $700 for insurance purposes.

With respect to actually shooting these guns, unless you are a hand loader, the ammo is hard to find and expensive when you do. My indoor range around here will not allow any lead ammo anymore so I have had to find an outdoor range, but I did find the gun to be quite accurate and a lot of fun (basically little to no recoil) to shoot.

Yours being a family heirloom you'll probably want to keep it as is but that's just my 2 cents worth.

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Thank you for your insight and information. There is an old box of 32-20 ammo with the revolver and another box with a few 32-20 rounds. I don't know the age of the ammo, and have never been one to "trust" old ammo. I'll have to see what the family wants to do as far as cleaning and firing. I doubt they will want to fire it, though I can see it being an enjoyable firearm.

Your post inspired me to give a little anecdotal story about my first encounter with this specific 32-20 HE... though the anecdote isn't specifically about the revolver.

I was asked to come to my wife's grandparents' to inspect a gun and remove it from the home. When I arrived, my father-in-law motioned me into the grandfather's office and handed me a leather bag that I'll call a money satchel, and he left the room. The 32-20 HE was in this satchel, wrapped in a brown rag, and was stored with a small palm-sized pistol, 2 different boxes of ammo, and a small round tin. The 32-20 revolver was loaded with 6 shots that came from one of the ammo boxes. I unloaded those rounds and put them back into the 32-20 ammo box. I sat the 32-20 to the side. The other ammo box was taped together and contained various types of bullets. Just glancing at the casings, the ammo was older 32-20, 38 auto, and for whatever reason, a single 22LR that I, of course, identified by appearance alone.

I did not pay much attention to the small tin at this point, instead turning my attention to the small pistol.

I have experience with a variety of firearms, but was inspecting the small, palm-sized pistol, and could not figure out what I was holding. I could not find a magazine or a method to open and load the gun. The mechanisms seem to be seized up from years of sitting in this satchel. Also, it has an odd hole in the top of the barrel. Not being familiar with the gun and not being able to determine if it is loaded, I am being very cautious with it... But my guard is still down as I don't feel overly in danger.

About that time, my wife's grandmother walked into the room. Gave me a friendly greeting and "Oh, you found the guns." She proceeded to reach forward and take the small, palm-sized pistol from me.

Now, I do not know the grandparents' familiarity with firearms, and I accept that this was my "mistake" to let her take the gun.

She is holding the gun open-handed in her palm for the moment. I asked her, "What is this gun? I cannot figure out how to load it."

She starts telling me the history of why they have this gun in a roundabout way, but doesn't answer my question. This is fairly normal for her. She is very much a storyteller, and every telling must start from the very beginning and be fully told to the end.

About this time, she changes the gun into a normal firing hold, and she starts waving the gun around, pointing it at my face. I simultaneously, metaphorically crap my pants, have a heartattack, and instinct kicks in where I forcefully grab her hand and wrist and thrust them to my left, her right, and step to my right to get the gun out of my face. Thankfully, I did not hurt her hand, wrist, or arm (she, too, like my wife's grandfather, is in her 90s), and thankfully the gun did NOT fire.

She continues to talk as if nothing has happened while I slowly pry the gun out of her hand and clasp it with my left hand. I continue to listen as she continues to talk... and then she again attempts to take the gun from me. But now I have a death grip on the gun and won't be letting her have it until I know it isn't loaded.

She continued to try to take the gun while talking, so I finally interrupted her. "I need to know if this gun is loaded before I hand it to you. What is this gun? How do you load it?"

She now tells me it is a starter pistol and gets to the point that the grandfather had given it to her so she could more or less brandish it if she ever felt in danger when he was travelling for work. Her waving it in my face was her demonstration of brandishing it should a stranger or an intruder have approached their house those many years ago. The small tin that I had ignored is clearly labelled "crimped blanks" had I turned it over.

I realize that at point-blank range that blank rounds can still cause damage, burns, and earing loss, but there was a huge sigh of relief that it was a starter pistol and not a single-shot pistol.

Any way, it is a PEC starter pistol. I still do not know how to load it, and I cannot get the small tin to open.
Not S&W, but here are a few photos of those items.

Wiregrassguy said:

The table of K frame revolvers you refer to is for .38 Special hand ejectors. .32-20 Hand Ejectors are also made on the K frame but have their own separate serial number sequence that overlaps with other models. On older models, you can't just use the serial number to pin down a date. You have to know what model it is first so you can select the correct table. That's one of the reasons we ask to see pictures of the gun.

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I see. Thanks for that clarification!