Yes…it could either distract or anger an opponent if a good “hit” were made.
The story of the .38/44 revolvers...
- Thread starter PALADIN85020
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very nice summary article on a cool gun from history.
If he found out he'd been hit, he might get rather irritated...
...BenA number of years back I picked up a pre-war 38-44 Outdoorsman in the original box. It looks like it has never been fired. I guess $750 was a good buy based on the Blue Book of gun values. I buy guns that I like not for investment but it is nice when it turns out.
I was told by a good gunsmith that Llama chromed the trigger/hammer for two reasons: To prevent corrosion of those critical sear-surfaces… which contributed to a better, smoother, crisp trigger-pull.
Made sense.
DWalt
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I didn’t like the appearance of the plated hammer and trigger, just a cosmetic thing. The Llama also had its firing pin in the frame instead of on the hammer, much like the Colt I frame. Otherwise the Llama revolver was a fairly close internal and external copy of the S&W K-frame. I did slick up its action a little. My only other complaint was that the Llama wood grips were crudely made and not very attractive. I replaced them with a pair of aftermarket plastic grips made for the K-frame. They fit OK and looked better.
One other topic about the S&W .38/44 worthy of inclusion is that many were later altered by their owners to accept the longer-cased .357 cartridge by simply lengthening its chambers slightly with a reamer. Not a big job if you could beg, borrow, or steal a reamer. Or else take the gun to a gunsmith to do it. I have a mid-1950s HD with such lengthened chambers, and mine works OK with .357 ammunition. I have not fired much .357 ammunition in it but it is nice to know that I can if needed. I have often wondered why S&W never offered a factory .357 HD after the cartridge appeared. It would have been very simple to do, and I believe it would have been a big seller. Except it would have cut into their market for the original premium-priced .357 Magnum revolver, and later the Models 27 and 28. Colt essentially did exactly that for their Trooper. Initially it was offered only in .38 Special, then later they simply lengthened the chambers and sold the same gun as the .357 Trooper. Truth be told, my Colt .357 Trooper is probably my favorite revolver of all I own. No one who owns a .357 Trooper needs a Python.
One other topic about the S&W .38/44 worthy of inclusion is that many were later altered by their owners to accept the longer-cased .357 cartridge by simply lengthening its chambers slightly with a reamer. Not a big job if you could beg, borrow, or steal a reamer. Or else take the gun to a gunsmith to do it. I have a mid-1950s HD with such lengthened chambers, and mine works OK with .357 ammunition. I have not fired much .357 ammunition in it but it is nice to know that I can if needed. I have often wondered why S&W never offered a factory .357 HD after the cartridge appeared. It would have been very simple to do, and I believe it would have been a big seller. Except it would have cut into their market for the original premium-priced .357 Magnum revolver, and later the Models 27 and 28. Colt essentially did exactly that for their Trooper. Initially it was offered only in .38 Special, then later they simply lengthened the chambers and sold the same gun as the .357 Trooper. Truth be told, my Colt .357 Trooper is probably my favorite revolver of all I own. No one who owns a .357 Trooper needs a Python.
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DWalt
Member
H, S. & B. (B stands for Bartlett, not Bartlell) was a very large Chicago wholesale hardware distributor with an unbelievable catalog. They carried anything and everything, along with an extensive inventory of all types of sporting goods including about every known gun in existence at the time. They were also the principal distributor of Peters ammunition. I have their catalog from 1914, one of my most prized possessions. I found it in an abandoned barn in Southern Ohio many years ago.
Wonderful article on the history of these .38/44 S&W revolvers! They've been a favorite of mine for many decades! Mine is a 1953 vintage I inherited from the son of the original owner. It was ordered new with an extra cylinder and barrel I was told because the original owner thought he'd shoot it so much he might wear them out. He died suddenly a decade later, so the extra cylinder and barrel are still with it when I got it.
I copied and pasted a caption from the web without checking if it was spelled correctly.
I agree wit DWalt, in fact I have been looking for a 1932 catalog to match the gun for years, but the prices asked are very high
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Dan W. Cady
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Just to clarify 38 Colt .379-.380", 38 S&W .362" and 38 Special .357" Bullet Diameters. Many folks do not Know this.
Dan W. Cady
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Wonderful article on the history of these .38/44 S&W revolvers! They've been a favorite of mine for many decades! Mine is a 1953 vintage I inherited from the son of the original owner. It was ordered new with an extra cylinder and barrel I was told because the original owner thought he'd shoot it so much he might wear them out. He died suddenly a decade later, so the extra cylinder and barrel are still with it when I got it.
According to Hornaday, Speer, Lyman, and ‘American Handgunner” data…. both the Colt and the S&W projectiles/bullets (lead) are .358”
The Lyman data also shows .357 in jacketed bullets for the “Colt N.P.”
The BULLET diameters are not what is significant when comparing these cartridges. The CASE O.D. (and less importantly, length) is the physical difference.
The .38 S&W case has larger O.D. than the Colt Short, Long, Spcl, .and 357Mag cases. The .38 S&W uses a similar sized O.D. bullet because the .38 S&W uses a “heeled” bullet…The bullet diameter is smaller where it enters the case-mouth (similarly to the .22rimfires s/l/l.r. versus the .22 mag).
For this reason, .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Spcl, can all be shot in a .357 revolver. But the .38 S&W, having a larger O.D. case, will not fit into a .357 (or .38 Spcl) chamber.
Hope that helps.
Here’s also a pic of a .38S&W vs .38Spcl … it should be obvious the S&W case is larger O.D. than the .38 Spcl (and therefore .38 Colts)
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A couple of small nits to pick............ First, my Lyman reloading manuals state to size cast bullets to .360 diameter not .358. None of my Lyman books show any data for jacketed bullets in the 38 S&W/38 Colt NP so I don't know which book you are using for that data. A .358 bullet can be used but may be undersized in many guns of that caliber. Hornady may recommend a .358 as that size is more widely available and will work even if it's not the ideal size. As an additional check I measured some 38 S&W factory bullets I have and they were .360 diameter.
Second thing is the 38 S&W does not use a "heeled" bullet. A 'heeled bullet has it's lubrication grooves on the exposed portion of the bullet outside the case (as in 22LR) and not on the part of the bullet inside the case mouth. The 38 short Colt does use a "heeled" bullet as did earlier version of the 38 Long Colt before they switched to a hollow base bullet to get the lube grooves inside the case. The 38 S&W has been an inside lubed design from the start.
The American Rifleman disagrees with you, re: Heeled bullet in the S&W .38:
“These first loads had heeled bullets whereby the bullet diameter was the same as the outside diameter of the case with a reduced-diameter heel held inside the case.”
An Official Journal Of The NRA | The .38 Smith & Wesson: History And Performance
Introduced in 1877, the .38 Smith & Wesson proved to be a popular revolver cartridge at the end of the 19th century, and was extensively used by the British well into the 20th century.
.357magger
Member
Very nice article.
Thanks for sharing it.
I've owned a few over the years, mainly pre war, particularly during my "gangster gun " phase of collecting.
I'm down to one, a 1946 "Transitional" refinished in nickel (nicely refinished I will add). This is a superbly accurate six gun that is fond of Buffalo Bore's "Outdoorsman" load, as it supposedly duplicates the original 38/44 loading. It's a mildly stout load, but nothing that the N frame doesn't soak right up.
Thanks for sharing it.
I've owned a few over the years, mainly pre war, particularly during my "gangster gun " phase of collecting.
I'm down to one, a 1946 "Transitional" refinished in nickel (nicely refinished I will add). This is a superbly accurate six gun that is fond of Buffalo Bore's "Outdoorsman" load, as it supposedly duplicates the original 38/44 loading. It's a mildly stout load, but nothing that the N frame doesn't soak right up.
If you notice it says "the first loads", which, while it might be possible during early design work really doesn't apply today and hasn't for many years (probably since 1876 when the new "Baby Russian" in the new 38 S&W round hit the market). Jinks in "The History of Smith & Wesson" writes that D.B. Wesson was not happy with the rimfire cartridge they had been working with for their new pocket pistol and designed his own, improved cartridge, the 38 S&W round. The design of the 38 S&W shows the influence of the 44 S&W Russian round, a center fire cartridge using an inside lubed bullet that protected the bullet lubricant from dirt, debris and potential loss of the lube. A heel type bullet has the lube on the exposed part of the bullet, not the portion inside the case (wouldn't work to lube the heel as it has little, if any, contact with the bore).The American Rifleman disagrees with you, re: Heeled bullet in the S&W .38:
“These first loads had heeled bullets whereby the bullet diameter was the same as the outside diameter of the case with a reduced-diameter heel held inside the case.”
An Official Journal Of The NRA | The .38 Smith & Wesson: History And Performance
Introduced in 1877, the .38 Smith & Wesson proved to be a popular revolver cartridge at the end of the 19th century, and was extensively used by the British well into the 20th century.www.americanrifleman.org
I have been shooting the 38 S&W round for @ 40 years and have been reloading it for most of that time using both factory bullets and my own cast bullets. I have never seen a factory round or a bullet for this cartridge that is a heel type. Even in my cartridge collection, which goes back to the 1880's, I have never found a 38 S&W with a heel type bullet. All have been inside lubed bullet. The American Rifleman piece may not be the last word on the history of the cartridge, in particular the claim that smokeless led to a redesign of the bullet. This is not accurate, black powder loads I have broken down to examine have the same design bullets as smokeless ones, the only difference I've ever found is larger lube grooves and use of a wax type bullet lube. They were still inside lubed and NOT a heeled bullet. Many of these articles are written by staff writers using whatever sources they have handy and may not always be completely accurate. As an example, I would suggest you read the first paragraph where the writer describes revolver frames as "open topped with a hinge up front for simultaneous extraction and ejection"................. Indicating either a total unfamiliarity with the subject or a rather hasty attempt to produce a "historical" article.
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DWalt
Member
That is generally correct but due to dimensional tolerance overlaps and imprecise manufacture, it is possible that occasionally SOME .38 S&W cartridges can be chambered in SOME .38 Special revolvers. The same is true for .38 Super cartridges, but even more so. I have seen instances of both. In reverse, the .38 Short Colt cartridge can always fit and fire in any .38 S&W revolver. Not that I recommend either practice. I once had a friend who owned a Ruger .357 revolver. The chamber diameters were apparently sloppy enough that any make of .38 Super cartridge would easily fit into its chambers. They fired OK.
Some may remember that in days of yore, there was also a .38 Colt Special cartridge. Identical to the .38 S&W Special cartridge. The only difference was the .38 Colt Special bullet had a flat nose.
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My college advisor in criminal justice, a former NYCPD motorcycle officer, had a S&W Chiefs Special that would accept .38 S&W cartridges.
Dan W. Cady
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Thanks Desi2358 You are correct> The confusion continues. I believe the most confusion is the 32 family of revolver rounds. 32S&W. 32 S&W Long, 32Colt New Police and 32 Colt Short And Long.
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