The point was very simple - having spare mags or a long gun in a vehicle doesn’t prepare one for a gunfight if they are away from the vihicle.
Low capacity but probably enough
- Thread starter Mr. Vito
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The point was very simple - having spare mags or a long gun in a vehicle doesn’t prepare one for a gunfight if they are away from the vihicle.
PittsburghJon67
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What is the recoil like with that load?
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A lot of this reminds me of large family gatherings. Some of the kin, just don’t budge from their staunch positions, regardless of an attempt to have a sane discussion. One such encounter was a person married into the family complaining about us all hunting, as she was mowing down the turkey.
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To blame the guns for the mass shootings is cheap and easy. Like the old adage, “To blame the guns for the killings is like blaming a pen for a bounced check, or alcohol for a DUI.” Deal with the real problem; everything else is just emotional appeasement and nothing more, and definitely not a fix.
Glenn R. McMannly
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Stout but manageable.
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Tally Ho, lads!
I'm just going to throw this out there with three comments:
- This is a data compilation of 1180 LEO involved shoots, which of course includes all the things LEOs do going into places armed citizens with any sense or situational awareness avoid. (It's a safe bet the engagements that require more than a single magazine are calls where LEOs called for backup first).
- Percentage wise, calculated based on the second chart on page three, 6 rounds covers 75 percent of the total LEO involved shoots, 11 rounds (10 +1) covers 90 percent and 16 rounds (15 + 1) covers 97 percent. In other words, an armed citizen really has to be situationally clueless and or just plain looking for trouble (which is the point a not so armed citizen friendly prosecutor is likely to make when you are found to have had two spare high capacity mags on you, plus the one in the pistol) to find a situation where 16 rounds wont be enough.
- A spare mag makes sense as a means to quickly clear a couple uncommonly encountered types of malfunctions. A single spare is far more defensible from that perspective as it side steps the "just in case I needed more ammo" problem of "what were you doing there after dark?" issue. However, if you encounter one of those malfunctions in the the real world you chose your handgun poorly, and or did not adequately range test your pistol and carry ammo in advance (usually 200 rounds straight with no failures for a semi auto pistol).
In short, there are much better ways for an armed citizen to cover realistic real world contingencies than carrying three 15 or 17 round magazines.
https://www.policinginstitute.org/w...9/05/1.-OIS_incident_exec_summary_8.28.19.pdf
- This is a data compilation of 1180 LEO involved shoots, which of course includes all the things LEOs do going into places armed citizens with any sense or situational awareness avoid. (It's a safe bet the engagements that require more than a single magazine are calls where LEOs called for backup first).
- Percentage wise, calculated based on the second chart on page three, 6 rounds covers 75 percent of the total LEO involved shoots, 11 rounds (10 +1) covers 90 percent and 16 rounds (15 + 1) covers 97 percent. In other words, an armed citizen really has to be situationally clueless and or just plain looking for trouble (which is the point a not so armed citizen friendly prosecutor is likely to make when you are found to have had two spare high capacity mags on you, plus the one in the pistol) to find a situation where 16 rounds wont be enough.
- A spare mag makes sense as a means to quickly clear a couple uncommonly encountered types of malfunctions. A single spare is far more defensible from that perspective as it side steps the "just in case I needed more ammo" problem of "what were you doing there after dark?" issue. However, if you encounter one of those malfunctions in the the real world you chose your handgun poorly, and or did not adequately range test your pistol and carry ammo in advance (usually 200 rounds straight with no failures for a semi auto pistol).
In short, there are much better ways for an armed citizen to cover realistic real world contingencies than carrying three 15 or 17 round magazines.
https://www.policinginstitute.org/w...9/05/1.-OIS_incident_exec_summary_8.28.19.pdf
I have never seen any evidence that a bump stock was used in Las Vegas. I haven’t seen any evidence that a bump stock was on any gun or even in the room in Las Vegas. If you have evidence of that, I would be interested in seeing it.
That’s even more damning in the eyes of John Q. Public. Thousands of rounds fired into a crowd from a guy rocking kit he bought at freely-accessible, local, non-specialty gun stores. Utterly terrifying, if one looks at it from the POV of a non-2A activist.
I ain’t saying we need or should have gun control in excess of what we already have. I am saying that how we are perceived, both IRL and increasingly online, is really important because we cannot have unlimited freedom without expecting consequences from the rest of society.
seabright60
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Exactly the bad guys don't give you a heads up
You are asking for tyranny. Either we accept the risks that come with freedom, or we become slaves to those who desire power.
No restrictions are good. They are all bad and were rejected by the founders who were mostly Christian men following the teachings of Christ. Even the atheist, and wise (albeit lecherous) man, Ben Franklin rejected any restrictions.
Fear makes you desire to be a slave. I reject such nonsense.
You should sell your guns and take up golf or knitting. You clearly don't understand this freedom thing. The more you type, the worse it gets. You don't need guns. Just dial 911.
As opposed to the tyranny of one madman with no accountability, an arsenal of anything and a motivation to slaughter? That’s just as bad, when you can’t participate in society for fear of a gunman executing people by the concertful for their own amusement.
walkin' trails
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I’ve got no use for FRTs or Glock switches. That issue is currently or has been discussed at the courts. I prefer a good two stage trigger in an accurate rifle. With that said, I’m not a proponent of banning anything 2A.
I’d never heard or seen any evidence linking school children taking rifles and shotguns to school during hunting season to active school shooter tragedies. Seems like the active shooter incidents came after the gun-free schools act became law in 1986.
Can’t call an idiot who gets dissed and opens up on a crowd with a converted Glock a 2A advocate.
Magazine capacity bans never thwarted any criminal act. Malfunctions related to drum magazines, which seem to be common, seem to have caused problem children later coddled by the courts and media to stop and not cause further mayhem. In many of those situations, someone with even a 5-shot who knew how to use it might have gotten their attention and stopped the mayhem even sooner.
Criminal statistics related to gun and magazine bans are only lower when manipulated.
Want to put firearms in the hands of violent criminals? Then let criminals off with slaps on the wrist, reduce sentences, release OR; anything to put more criminals back on the street who are likely to arm themselves.
Anytime things like binary triggers, bump stocks, drum mags, etc get banned or is threatened, everyone who also missed out on firearms and safety education wants one. But the mainstream shines such negative light on education and training programs that same people don’t always seek out what they need.
I believe far fewer people have been massacred by pack mules than by trucks. Do we need to ban vehicles along with bump stocks? We will still have deranged people among us even if we don’t have guns. Always have.
The “slippery slope” is what we’re on right now - have been on for years, and too many people are being slow boiled and don’t realize it.
I’d never heard or seen any evidence linking school children taking rifles and shotguns to school during hunting season to active school shooter tragedies. Seems like the active shooter incidents came after the gun-free schools act became law in 1986.
Can’t call an idiot who gets dissed and opens up on a crowd with a converted Glock a 2A advocate.
Magazine capacity bans never thwarted any criminal act. Malfunctions related to drum magazines, which seem to be common, seem to have caused problem children later coddled by the courts and media to stop and not cause further mayhem. In many of those situations, someone with even a 5-shot who knew how to use it might have gotten their attention and stopped the mayhem even sooner.
Criminal statistics related to gun and magazine bans are only lower when manipulated.
Want to put firearms in the hands of violent criminals? Then let criminals off with slaps on the wrist, reduce sentences, release OR; anything to put more criminals back on the street who are likely to arm themselves.
Anytime things like binary triggers, bump stocks, drum mags, etc get banned or is threatened, everyone who also missed out on firearms and safety education wants one. But the mainstream shines such negative light on education and training programs that same people don’t always seek out what they need.
I believe far fewer people have been massacred by pack mules than by trucks. Do we need to ban vehicles along with bump stocks? We will still have deranged people among us even if we don’t have guns. Always have.
The “slippery slope” is what we’re on right now - have been on for years, and too many people are being slow boiled and don’t realize it.
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scattershot
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The remains of someone killed by a bear.
VaTom
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Sounds like time for a wrap on this thread.
Officer Involved Shooting stats are almost useless for everyday people.
The thing about using OIS stats for regular people is their situations aren’t the same at all, and that could skew things in any direction.
An LEO is usually called to a known situation. A citizen is responding to the surprise event as it happens. That alone can cause many differences.
Some others-
Engagement distance: The citizen is likely to be at contact distance, where the LEO responds from some stand-off distance.
Numbers: If responding to a call, LE will possibly have multiple officers while the citizen is almost certainly alone. If four officers respond and fire a total of 16 rounds, it took 16 rounds to end the situation. But it ends up in the figures as an average of four shots.
A citizen might require the same 16 rounds to stop an attack. Same result that looks very different.
Guns used: LE will have a service-size gun in at least 9mm. A regular citizen could have anything. Can we expect the same results and numbers from John Q. Citizen’s .32 auto that fits in the palm of his hand that we get from Officer Friendly’s Glock 22 in .40 S&W with a red dot and mounted light?
Mindset of the participant: Officer responds to a dispute at a house he’s been to three times today already when the shooting occurs. It’s the end of his shift, and he’s had enough of all of them.
The citizens’ situation will be more like responding to a knife suddenly jammed in his side or three guys trying to snatch his teenage daughter.
Who is going to fight harder, the officer in his situation or the citizen examples?
This is what I thought of simply off the top of my head. The OIS stats might have little to no bearing on most of us. Any attorney who can’t make that point is useless.
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I live in a low crime area in the coastal Pac Northwest.
70% of the time I’m fine with my 642-1 in a pocket holster, or a Don Hume JIT slide concealed OWB, with two speed loaders.
25% of the time it’s a GP100 (model 1715) concealed OWB with a couple speed loaders…..typically when the annoying, not afraid of humans black bears are active at my work……with the occasional big cat, and the handful of tweakers who migrate here in summer. (Most of them are “harmless”……..but a growing number are becoming an issue as far as potentially being not so harmless.)
Every now and again I have to go to Portland with my wife……….I carry both on those occasions.
70% of the time I’m fine with my 642-1 in a pocket holster, or a Don Hume JIT slide concealed OWB, with two speed loaders.
25% of the time it’s a GP100 (model 1715) concealed OWB with a couple speed loaders…..typically when the annoying, not afraid of humans black bears are active at my work……with the occasional big cat, and the handful of tweakers who migrate here in summer. (Most of them are “harmless”……..but a growing number are becoming an issue as far as potentially being not so harmless.)
Every now and again I have to go to Portland with my wife……….I carry both on those occasions.
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