I have looked all over for 231 and it seems to have disappeared. All the major online sources are out as well as my local retailers.

Anyone know why? Is this just a normal stock out problem?

Find some HP-38


http://www.natchezss.com/Category.cf...owder%201%20lb

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Still Running Against the Wind

Yep, HP38 and W231 are both made at the same plant (St. Marks Powder in Florida) as SMP231. There are lot-to-lot burning rate variations which can lead to differing data from different sources (not to mention the variables in the different source's data labs and loading circumstances), but it is all the same powder.

This is one of the things I was worried about for Winchester when they let Hodgdon take over the distribution end of things. Sometimes there's no Winchester powders available... Sometimes there will be less Hodgdon available, but I'm betting that will be a lot rarer than when Winchester is unavailable.

Basically we have three powder companies left who do distribution: Western Powders (Ramshot, Accurate), ATK (Alliant), and Hodgdon (Winchester, IMR, and Hodgdon). Vihtavouri, Norma, and a few other stragglers are out there, but they don't do the volume of the first three, who are the mainstays of the powder industry. I've been afraid since first hearing of it, that with the shrinking distribution channels, prices would go up and availability would go down. Looks like it's true.

I still have about 8 lbs of it. I use it for all my pistols. The newer WST and such they are putting out uses almost twice as much powder for the same charge. That's half as many round produced for the same price. Talk about money making for them. Doubled profits.

I am going to assume that there is no direct swap between the load data for 231 and HP-38.

I share your concern about availability of powder. The big box outdoor stores don't seem to have a broad selection in store. They want to sell via the Internet I guess, but the Hazmet and special handling charges really boost the prices over the moon.

Tjloeb,

WW 231 and HP 38 are EXACTLY the same powder with different container labeling. You can use the data interchangably. You should of course, do standard work up verification anytime you change a component.

I've found that HP 38 is generally a dollar or two a pound cheaper here in the Dallas area.

Yeah, what Dobbs said. H-38. Same powder, same data, buck or two cheaper. In stores here it's about $27 versus $17 online + shp + haz mat. About the same cost for a pound. Works out better if you buy bigger quantities and/or add a bunch of primers to the shipment.

Trust us Exact same powder. There has been a bazillion (whats more, gazillion?) threads on it, here and other forums.

Go forth and load.

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Still Running Against the Wind

The local, (2hr drive), Cabelas had plenty of W-231. Haven't seen any

Unique or Bullseye anywere around here for months though.

Not to side track, but on the HAZMAT fee, is that per shipment, or per item? Don't order powder or primer's online yet.

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Pete.

My local reloading store ran out of W231 but had plenty of HP38. I kept my mouth shut and bought it when I needed it.

Now their shelves are loaded with almost every powder except W231/HP38. They say they order it but it never comes?

Most places it's per order up to around 70lbs. You can buy primers and powder at the same time for one Hazmat fee. I think Midway charges 2 haz mats as the powder and primers come from different places, but I do not order powder from them.
Last time I ordered a bunch was from Wideners.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Go to Hodgdon's reloading data site and you'll see that WW231/H-38 loads are identical.

That's because since Hodgdon is distributing both & putting out the sole-source loading data for both, and they know they are identical, they are not testing them seperately. That's part of the shame of unifying distributors -- Winchester data, collected under different lab conditions and with different lot#s of the identical powder, would show us a broader range of the burning rate characteristics. Given a slightly advanced understanding of internal ballistics, this gave us a better idea of the range of useful and safe loads we could test.

For example, when I got a particularly slow lot of 231 once, it wouldn't cycle the action of most of my 9mm pistols with the max load in the Win. Pamphlet, but switching to the heavier loads in the Lyman manual let me go higher and those worked. If i stuck to the loads in the hodgdon manual (which are always lighter loads) my pistols would never have cycled. But this variation in burn rates is also why you cant use a max load from a previous lot because sometimes lots are faster burning and the lighter loads in the hodgdon manual are max with those faster lots.

That would be an incorrect assumption. If you check the current load data on the Hodgdon Load Data Site you will see the load data for W231 and Hp-38 are identical for all calibers they are used in. This also holds true for W760/H414, W296/H110 and a few others...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

>>>Not to side track, but on the HAZMAT fee, is that per shipment, or per item? Don't order powder or primer's online yet.<<<

The Hazmat is "Per shipment".

The way I do it is to get together with a couple of friends and make a LARGE order (say, a couple of kegs of powder and ten to twenty thousand primers). When you do that, the Hazmat fee and shipping cost becomes a minor issue.

Dale53

Since you live in the Windy, take a trip to Kempf Gun Shop in Michigan City, IN. They are right around the corner and I can almost guarantee they will have anything you want on hand. Even when primers got scarce, they had them. They rationed them, but still had them all the way through!

Old man Kempf is a grouchy old man that doesn't like people or questions. If you can take that, or talk to his son or daughter, your trip there will be well worth it.

They have a website too but I'm not sure if their reloading supplies are listed on it.

Sue Kempf and I shot Cowboy Action together. I have bought most of my reloading equipment from them. She is great.

They totally slipped my mind. I will call today. Thanks for the reminder.

To bring up an old thread, I still can't find Winchester 231 in stock anywhere. Good to know there may be a substitute. I think 231 has been unofficially discontinued or they cut production to an occasional lot.

My LGS has had a good supply.

Powder Valley, Inc. is cheap enough that 8lbs of powder plus hazmat is usually cheaper than your LGS. I wait until I have enough to place an order by myself. If you can get friends involved, so much the better.

W231 is available here in the Northeast of PA so it's not discontinued. According to Hodgdon HP-38 is the identical powder so if you can't fine W231 buy HP-38 if that's available. I buy the one that's the cheapest when at the store...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

In the long run, it PAYS to try to stockpile your loading components of PRIMERS and POWDER. The unavailability due to demand or political issues do not affect you then.

You can also look to CASTING your own bullets as an additional hobby.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I'm curious what cartridge you are loading that needs twice as much WST as it would 231? I looked through the data and they usually use similar charges for the same cartridge. The burn rate is similar and WST is usually shown as a faster power. This would usually mean lower charges.

And yes, modern 231=HP38. Buy powder in bulk and save. You also don't notice the occasional shortages that happen from time to time.

I got caught during the Clinton presidency. I swore never again. When the shortages happened after Obama was elected, I just sat and smiled and went back to loading while everyone else was complaining about primer prices going through the roof, if you could find them.

I use 231 & I use a lot of WST, they is very little difference if you look at the burn rates in most reloading manuals. I found out the hard way that WST isn't as temp. sensitive as 231 for competition, but both are great powders.
Using a 205 gr cast slug that I make, along with 3.7 grs of WST will make major power factor easily in my 40 S&W revolver, used it for years.

Dick

Grafs has 231 and HP-38 in stock. The HP-38 is around $10 cheaper per 8 lbs.

Graf & Sons - The Reloading Authority - Your Source for Shooting Supplies

This might be the right time to try Accurate #2. Just my opinion.

I'm going to try HP38. All the best looking loads seem to be 231 and I can't get it anywhere around here off the shelf.
As for the stockpiling, you're right. I try to get whatever I can afford because I'm sick of nothing being in stock when I need it. "just-in-time" manufacturing is not in time for me.

I do have and use that currently.

Another excellent alternative is Ramshot ZIP. It is not the exact same powder as 231, but if you look at loads across the typical range of uses (9mm, 38, 40, 45, etc.), you will find ZIP is closer in application and load to 231 than any of the other excellent already-mentioned alternatives (like AA2 and WST).

I'll look into that, too. Thanks!

Hodgon "Clays" is great for cowboy loads. It takes less for same volicity and isn't sensetive about being tight aginst the primer.

Is Clays a kind of a bulk powder to fill the case then? Never used it before. I only reload for handgun and rifle.
Going to do one more 380/200 reload with Unique, and then try to find some HP38 this week and may try ZIP or Clays, too. My old Webley Mk VI shoots closer to POA with the 200 grain .360" LRN than the factory 146gr 38 S&W, but still trying to find the tightest grouping load combination. I am also working up moderately mild 45 Auto Rim (about 750 fps) with .452" 230gr LRN for the M-1917...still experimenting there, too.

Rob

I wouldn't try Clays right now. It's an extremely fast powder and slight variations can spike the pressures. I would stick with W231/HP-38 and Zip instead.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Thanks. I am leaning that way. HP38 or Zip.
(The stores have the empty 231 containers on display to show they supposedly carry it, but nothing in the back storage when you ask for a can.)

Rob

Rob, it really doesn't matter if you buy W231 or HP-38 because they really are the same powder. In the St. Marks plant they pore both from the same vat and put a different label and cap on them.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Tjloeb,
I think they must have shipped it all to NE Ohio. A place up here just opened a new store near Canton, OH and they had W231 by the truck load.

Fin, Feather and Fur Outfitters

Cool. I hope they got HP38 when I get there. LOL.

I am in the Phila area and I go to several Gun Shows put on around Phila. I found that these shows have plenty of powder and primers at prices equal or better then mail order. Some dealers don't charge sales tax so that is a plus.

Dane