38 Spcl Factory Dup. phase 2

Hello
Thought you guys might find this interesting..

Last year I did a small expose on .38 Special 158gr Lead RN factory loads, dealing with what it would take, in charge weight, to duplicate the Remington UMC 158gr Lead RN factory load with a cast bullet of the same weight (Lyman #358311 sized .358”) with some of the more popular powders.
The Remington factory load, of a 158gr Lead RN; chronographed over my Oehler Mod 33 at 770 fps with a 4” S&W 686.
You can find that post here.
.38 Special factory load duplication

My ultimate goal here is to demonstrate that Remington is using an extraordinary propellant in their UMC factory load, not easily duplicated with what is available to us.

This year I wanted to expand this effort a bit and do some things a little different.
Instead of using a cast bullet, since not everyone casts, I wanted to use a bullet that is more similar to the Remington bullet, that being a swaged lead bullet, and one that is readily available to everyone. For this I chose the Speer Lead 158gr RN.




I have also accumulated more powders to test. A list of these and the recommended max loads for each powder with 158gr lead bullets can be seen here;

AA#2……….4.0
AA#5……….5.9
RS ZIP……...4.2
Bullseye…….3.6
Red Dot……..3.9
Power Pistol…5.4
Unique………4.7
Titegroup……3.9
W-231………4.3
HP-38……….4.3
Universal……4.5
700-X……….3.7
SR 7625…….4.5
SR 4756…….5.3
N-320………4.6
Herco……….4.5

In addition I threw in two more brands of factory ammo just for comparison;
Federal (American Eagle) 158gr Lead RN, and the old classic Winchester 158gr RN Lubaloy.
And just because I had some, (target #4) I threw in some Remington 200gr LRN 38 Special factory loads shot out of a 6½” barrel. Even that load has a very respectable velocity.



Here is how the American Eagle and Winchester rounds break down; The breakdown of the Rem load was done in last year’s post and can be seen in the link above.

The Federal American Eagle round is loaded with a 158gr lead RN bullet and is charged with 3.4-3.5 grs of something that looks very much like Bullseye.









The Winchester round, the old classic 158gr Lubaloy RN is loaded with a copper plated lead RN bullet. This bullet weighed 158.3 grs.



and is charged with a silvery flattened ball powder weighing 3.8 grs.





So, after months of nasty southern Oregon weather, I finally got a window of ‘decent’ weather and went out and shot. Except for an occasional sleet shower, the sun was shining. Temp was in the high 30’s °F and the wind was gusting fairly well making shooting fine groups difficult at best.

After an afternoon of shooting, here is the target. Conditions are noted top right.



So right off the bat I’m noticing some interesting things…

Notice that the Remington factory load, in an ambient temperature of 38°F clocked 763 fps; only a few fps slower than last years reading at 65°F ambient.


And notice how slower the other two factory loads are at this temperature. It could be that Fed and Win load their ammo a bit slower... Have to wait and see.
Also notice the velocities of Bullseye, 700-X, Unique, Power Pistol, 231, and SR7625, as compared to last year. The well established ‘factory duplication load’ of 3.5 grs of Bullseye wouldn’t have come close to any factory load, as it is, 3.7grs didn’t make it.
When I shot the SR7625 and the SR4756 test loads, (targets 20 and 21), I was wondering if I neglected to put powder in the case before seating a bullet.. the report was extremely light. I noticed a lot of unburned powder in the cases.

So what I’m gathering from this is, most of the powders tested are somewhat to extremely temperature sensitive. Maybe even the Fed and Win factory loads are not at their best at 38°F.. I’ll have to wait.. and see when the weather here gets warmer and re-shoot this series.

Somewhat interesting also is the results with N-320. Note the very high extreme spread yet it produced an acceptable group.. one of the best of the day.
I’m also betting, that when I shoot again in warmer weather the groups and extreme spreads will tighten up and velocities will be higher. Again I’ll have to wait and see.

Anyway, that’s all I have for now. I’ll probably re-shoot this series May-June.

Thanks for the extensive report. I know how much work goes into something like this and I appreciate your efforts.

Interesting information.
Are you loading the Speer LRNs to the COAL length of 1.510" that Speer uses?

Wow, that is a great report and pictures. That is a lot of work.
It will be interesting to see how they test in warmer temps.

Thanks for the report.

I hate to say it, but it looks like you're expending a lot of time and effort duplicating some very anemic factory loads.

I believe that SR4756 is inverse temperature sensitive, meaning it will generate higher pressures in colder weather, at least in theory. Maybe somebody who knows more about this kind of thing can explain it better. Still, the charge weight you list (5.3 grs.) is rather low, though maximum charges of this powder tend to be a point of bitter contention.

Another odd powder that might be worth trying is 800X. I heard that it also exhibits weird characteristics when loaded into handgun cartridges, but I can't remember just what these characteristics are. I will have to try to find the article.

Dave Sinko

I bet they would work well down here. It was 88* F yesterday.
I never shot much up North but would think you need a heat pack in a cooler to keep your ammo warm, Or I guess you could sit on and hatch it.

If SR 4756 is inverse, then it would not work at all here in the summer.

OCD1 said:

If SR 4756 is inverse, then it would not work at all here in the summer.

Click to expand...

C.O.L was 1.535".. Same as the factory loads.

... And thanks

The reason I asked about the seating COAL is because in the picture above it appears as though they were seated too far down on the bullet, thus too long of an OAL. This may affect accuracy and if the data used was specifically for the Speer LRN bullet you wouldn't be getting as close to the velocity and pressure levels that you might have.

Wow! I've been waiting for this. Maybe this possible temperature sensitivity accounts for some of the widely varying data we see, particularly in loads with Win/HP-38. It makes it very difficult for me to standardize on a factory duplication load.
Thanks for your efforts.
Chris

Hey! Could the decrease in velocity also be the product of you using a swaged bullet instead of a harder, cast bullet?

Jellybean said:

The reason I asked about the seating COAL is because in the picture above it appears as though they were seated too far down on the bullet, thus too long of an OAL. This may affect accuracy and if the data used was specifically for the Speer LRN bullet you wouldn't be getting as close to the velocity and pressure levels that you might have.

Click to expand...

I think seating this bullet the same length as factory is just about right.
I've experimented with this before and seating depth would not account for such a significant velocity variation. Accuracy.. probably, but not this much difference in velocity.

I'm pretty sure this temperature related. But in a short time we'll find out for sure..

GyMac said:

Hey! Could the decrease in velocity also be the product of you using a swaged bullet instead of a harder, cast bullet?

Click to expand...

Nah.. don't believe so.
The cast bullet was a 90/10 lead/tin mix,.. not that hard.

Granted, a change in componants including bullets will change the ballistics somewhat.. It usually always does, but not this much.

I think your OAL of factory loads is too long with the speer bullet as it
is obvious that your hand load has the bullet crimpted into the lubrication groove rather than over the shoulder. Swaged bullets do
indeed yield lower velocities than cast bullets. Chronographs often
do not work very well at near freezing temps. A gusting wind that rocks
your chronograph or whatever its sitting on can cause false readings.
Some of your velocities are so low that they cannot be the result of
temperature sensitivity alone in my opinion.