.38 Special and 2400 powder

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Doug.38PR

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OKAY, I just bought a bottle of Alliant 2400 powder after hearing on this and other internet sources that it could "safely" propel a 158 gn Lead .38 Special +P load up to .38-44 Hi Speed or Buffalo Bore velocities......


....well 1st thing I noticed was...it's not listed in my manuels under .38, 38+P or even .357 Magnum lead bullets. the 2nd thing was that it is labled "Smokeless MAGNUM Handgun Powder".....

Is his REALLY safe? And is is safe to be using "i heard it on the internet" loading data?
 
Don't worry. 2400 is a perfectly good powder for higher end .38 Special loads. I have some here and use it infrequently only because it costs more than twice what Unique or Bullseye does to use.

Alot of guys use it in .357 and .44 cases, ergo the "Magnum" moniker.

Go to the Alliant webpage and check for 2400 loads in the .38.

Good luck!

Drew
 
Strictly, 2400 is a rifle propellant which is useable in revolver cartridges. It is perfectly safe for heavy .38 Special loads. Remember that .38-44 level loads are in the 25,000 PSI range or higher, which is in .357 Magnum territory. In the past they were specified as for Heavy-frame guns, N-Frame, Colt New Service, Single Action Army, not K-Frame S&W or D-Frame Colts.

You can use up to 11.8 gr/2400/158 LSWC (Old Lyman manual). You will get in .38-44 velocity range with ca. 10.5/2400/158 LSWC. These have all been shot and chronographed by me with no adverse results.

If you are shooting these in anything lighter than an N-Frame do not exceed 10 gr/2400/158 LSWC. Do not expect to see .38-44 velocities (1115-1150 FPS) from any revolver with a barrel length less than 6 1/2".

THIS IS MERELY A RELATION OF MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND OLD REFERENCES. IT IS IN NO WAY A RECOMMENDATION. DO NOT SHOOT IN ANYTHING EXCEPT HEAVY FRAME REVOLVERS OR RIFLES.

I should have said too, since this seems to be a question posed by someone not very experienced as a reloader, that loading any ammunition to pressure levels that exceed +P levels is something not to be done until you have quite a bit of experience with standard loading. This is akin to recommendations made in the late 1930s about the .357 Magnum, and that was DO NOT ATTEMPT RELOADING THIS CARTRIDGE. See Phillip B. Sharpe, "Complete Guide to Reloading"!
 
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Doug.38PR said:
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

ooookay. Not finding it
Click to expand...

That's because they do not list it as a tested powder for the 38 Special or plus P version.

There is data out there in older manuals and one I found in a newer manual.

That being said and go back and read ALK8944 post, perhaps you should invest in some different powder at this time, Try some powders that are listed in YOUR manuals for +P.

Alliant lists 4 powders online.
 
Alk8944 has given you good advice. I use 2400 to load for my .38-44 Heavy Duty revolvers, but they are N-frames, and built for it. I have used it in .357 for my Rossi Puma carbine, and it excels there. Tried a couple of those in my M13-2, and recoil was vicious, primers flat, and extraction a little stiff ! I don't do that anymore and don't recommend that you do. With a 158gr. lead bullet in a K-frame, not more than 10.0gr, and never less than 6.0. Light loads of slow powder seem to be a bit iffy. hth

Larry
 
I guess I'm the only one but I feel 2400 is too slow a powder for use in the .38 Special. There are plenty of other good powders in a faster burn rate range more suitable for generating the pressures associated with a .38 Special.

If you're looking for a good powder to make the FBI Load (158gr LSWC .38 Special +P) I use HS-6. It will deliver the velocity you are looking for but not generate excessive pressure.

Back in the day there were very few powders so reloaders had to make due with what was available. There are SO MANY powders out there now there is no reason to settle so buy the powder that will serve your purpose best. In the end you will spend more time, primers, powder and bullets to find out 2400 really isn't the right powder for what you want to do. Save all the time and components and cut your losses and buy the correct powder now instead of later.
 
..............and that would be HS-6 by ArchAngel's standard, SR4756 by mine! :)

If you want whomping 38spl loads, then SR4756 is your baby! Seriously! I would think that Longshot would be a good choice too but they don't list any loads, at least the last time I checked, for it in this caliber.

I'll tell you what to try though. Go to the Lapua website and look at their Vita Vohouri loads for a 158gr LSWC. The statement right in the front of their manual is enough to convince me that obtaining these kinds of results is possible. It says something to the effect that ALL of their loads meet SAAMI or CIP standards for pressure for the caliber.

They have a load listed that pushes that weight bullet to over 1000fps! Inside SAAMI pressure specs! IMAGINE! ;)

Are we to believe that there are NO American made powders that can do the same thing? Just Sayin' ;)
 
ArchAngelCD said:
I guess I'm the only one but I feel 2400 is too slow a powder for use in the .38 Special. There are plenty of other good powders in a faster burn rate range more suitable for generating the pressures associated with a .38 Special.
Click to expand...
I agree. 2400 is not a good powder for the 38 spl. You can make it work but something like Power Pistol will serve you much better. Especially in short barrels. I use PP for 38+p and low to midrange 357. I reserve 2400 and 300MP for the true magnum loads (which I mostly shoot out of my Marlin anyways).
 
I have already loaded several boxes of +P using Unique and Power Pistol. The hottest I've loaded so far is 5.8 grains of Power Pistol.

As for 2400. I'm just seeking to duplicate Buffalo Bore .38+P loads (they cost so dang much) safely (which is pretty much what the .38-44 was). Buffalo Bore lists their new .38+P 158 gr Outdoorsman loads as being fired in K and even J frame revolvers safely.
A load that hot I would limit mostly to my E frame Colt Official Police 4 inch (built on the same frame as the Python and Trooper), some occasional rounds in my K frame S&W M-15 and MAYBE an occasional cylinderful in my Colt Detective Special
 
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I really don't understand people saying a K frame is unsuitable for 2400 loads in .38 Special brass. The main concern is pressure, so it's advisable to use a gun that will handle the pressure, like a M19 or M66, both being K frames. Of course, that applies to any powder chosen.

I have two basic powders for .38 Specials intended for other than my M14 and that's 2400 and SR 4756. Either one will out perform H110/W296 in medium bores, like .357 Mag.

Since we have already introduced Phil Sharpe's book, page 409 tells us he used up to 14.0 gr of 2400 with a 146 SWCHP at 1380 fps and 29,700 breech pressure with a .340" seating depth in .38 Special. 12.0 gr with that bullet clocked 1200 fps at 21,800 breech pressure with that same seating depth. He went on up to 16.0 gr, but seated at .215" to produce 1511 fps at 35,000 breech pressure (way too high for anything other than a .357 Mag).

Speer #8 got 1155 fps with a 158 gr lead SWC using 11.0 gr 2400 with a magnum primer. Their test gun was a 6" K38.

Speer #5 (1961) gives the pressure of a 146 gr half jacket bullet at 1103 fps and 16,000 cup with 11.0 gr of 2400.
BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #5, Speer Inc, 1961 :: aab

Now, why is 2400 supposed to be unsuitable?
 
The source for that data was Alliant and they always claim more than what a real world gun will produce.
 
Elmer on pocket guns:
In true pocket guns for defense use, the best we know of today are the Smith & Wesson Centennial and the Chief’s Special and the Colt Cobra. The Smith & Wesson 2 inch barrel, round butt Military and Police model may be added to this list. These are true pocket guns – all capable of handling the various high speed and super police loads in .38 Special. The smallest and lightest of the lot is, of course, the Chief’s Special with light alloy metal frame. Next come the Smith & Wesson Centennial and the Colt Cobra and lastly the detective specials in Smith & Wesson and Colt. (emphasis added)
Click to expand...
 
It's not just peak pressure that effect max velocity it's also the amount of time that pressure is sustained, area under the curve. Buffalo bore has access to powders that most do not so duplicating their loads maybe almost impossible with what you have to work with powders use. If they can sustain the same pressure for a bit longer with their powders they can achieve higher velocities with the same max pressures. If you want 357 power buy one.
 
Maybe he just wants a real .38 Special load instead of the wimp loads being published/sold now.

I find it amazing that published loads from 50 years ago, that didn't blow guns up, are now disdained as being "over the top". It's the Glock type plastic junk that keeps blowing up with a rare revolver that has been grossly over loaded.

The powder companies want you to buy the latest and greatest, so they can recoup their development money and they push those new powders while they exclude perfectly good loads with older powders. Bullet companies want you to buy their newest bullets too, so they load them with the newer powders with sterling results, so they can sell bullets and loading manuals.

All the while, reloaders are left wondering whose published load is really a max load, since they fluctuate wildly in their data and grossly overstate their results.
 
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