.38 Special and 2400 powder

[Paul5388]

Obviously there is some questionable data somewhere. Speer #5 says 11.0 gr with a 160 gr half jacket bullet only produces 18K pressure. BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #5, Speer Inc, 1961 :: aab That's the same data Speer #7 published too. BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #7, Speer Inc, 1968 :: aab

 

[Doug.38PR]

OK. I just loaded, for comparison, 6 rounds. Two 2400 7.0 grains (as recommended starting point by Alliant in Handloads.com), two Power Pistol 5.8 grains and two Unique 5.1 grains. All with 158 gr LRN Speer bullets. Shooting was at night.

Wanted to feel the power in the flash and recoil. Unique was something of a jump with a bit of a spark coming out. Power Pistol was a little more jump and more of a flash. 2400....was a almost no jump and almost no flash.
Even my dad, who was sitting inside my house, ask what I was shooting. He noticed the first two were pretty loud while the last two sounded like almost nothing.

 

[Paul5388]

Doug, what we've been trying to tell you is, you can load what the current books say and obviously have no troubles. OTOH, you can also load what the old manuals say and probably not have any problems either. The price you may pay with the older hotter loads is a decrease in the life of your gun, if you shoot them a lot.

It's all in what you're willing to accept as valid data along with the very real possibility of increased/accelerated wear.

 

[Doug.38PR]

probably not have any problems either. .

AHEM....."probably" is the key word here. The flip side of that is there could possibly be a problem.

The only thing that concerns me really is what I understand to be the dangers in using old data. From what I understand, it's not that old manuals are wrong, but they are just not NECESSARILY right for powder brands as they are currently made. like one type of powder today might be hotter than it was 30 years ago and hence dangerous to use old loading data.

Apart from what I just said, I don't see why certain loads were ok 30 years ago but are suddenly unmentionable today

 

[ddixie884]

Lawyers...................

 

[Paul5388]

Powder doesn't change in a drastic way, regardless of what people say and regardless of when it was made. Powder that has been sitting on a shelf in your loading room will get weaker with age due to deterioration, not stronger. There will be some variation by lot number, but only within a specified range, or it's rejected for canister use and sold to the large ammunition plants.

 

[olskool]

i have some IMR4350 from the 60s that i use in 6mm remington and 303 british. it works fine, as long as it smells good like acetone it is ok to use.

 

[parabarbarian]

When comparing old manuals to new remember that the old recommendations were based on CUP measurements (sometimes labeled as PSI) and the new are based on average and maximum PSI measured by a pressure transducer.

 

[Paul5388]

SAAMI specifications are in CUP and PSI, so it doesn't make any difference when the manual was written, if it includes pressure data. SAAMI has been around since the 1920s, long before there were any transducers being used. However, transducers were used in the early 1960s by DuPont and some others as recorded in "Absolute Chamber Pressures in Center Fire Rifles", L.E. Brownell and others, July 1965, University of Michigan.

 

[Treeman]

Paul is correct that specs have been around a long time in various measurement formats. Furthermore, Bill Caldwell at Speer created the Pressure Revolver at Speer and measured pressure using piezo electric transducers at the time of the much debated Speer #8 proving that pressures were INCREASED in revolvers due to the jump from cylinder to forcing cone rather than being lowered by the b/c gap. One of thr powders tested in .357 mag in the pressure revolver? IMR 4756.

 

[Paul5388]

Here's an article on Wm. M. Caldwell and Speer's device. BBHFarm Gallery :: Pressures and the Revolver, Gun Digest 1973 Edition

I just re-read that article and the findings there. One thing that jumped out was the reference on the first page to solid test barrels that had been used, presumably in Speer#8 and in Speer's ammunition development. The other thing is the correlation to what Lee Jurras was doing with Super Vel, i.e. using smaller diameter bullets, with lighter weights and longer OAL to reduce pressure.

 

[Model19man]

Click here:

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

You missed it then because at least one load is there:
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

 

[John M]

chrono results - 2400 in 38 SPL

Wanting to see what can and can't be done with 2400 in .38 SPL, I did some testing yesterday. In a .38 SPL case, 9.9 grains of 2400 over a 158 grain Rim Rock LSWCHP with gas check gave me the following stats on a 5 shot string out of a 2" 640-1:

Average: 826 FPS
Extreme spread: 41 FPS
standard dev: 19 FPS

This is pretty close to BB's .38 SPL standard pressure load out of the same gun. I clocked the BB 158 LSWCHP .38 SPL load at 835 FPS a few weeks ago out of the same 640-1. If you believe Speer #8 to be a reliable guide for safe reloading, my load of 9.9 grains of 2400 over a 158 LSWC would be an acceptable load in a revolver chambered in .38 SPL, as the top load listed there is 11.0 grains for a 158 grain LSWC.

Now for the +P load...

I clocked the BB .38 SPL +P load at 1030 FPS out of my 2" 640-1. 13.2 grains of 2400 over a 158 grain Rim Rock LSWCHP with gas check, in a .357 Mag case, out of the 2" 640-1 gave me results that are very similar to BB's .38 SPL +P load, as follows:

Average: 1036 FPS
Extreme spread: 45
standard dev: 18

So, that's one easy way to replicate BB's 38 SPL +P load if you have a J frame .357. However, how to replicate BB's .38 SPL +P load within any set of published .38 SPL guidelines still baffles me.

 

[mtgianni]

Lawyers...................

Or good Chronographs and pressure testing.

 

[Skip Sackett]

If you believe Speer #8 to be a reliable guide for safe reloading

As a matter of fact, I do!

Here is a picture of THEIR pressure testing equipment (notice the cables, not needed for CUP readings) from that manual!

FWIW

 

[arc2x4]

Another minor point to remember.

The powder may not be that different, but the Bullet may be completely different, than what is in the Old manual from 30 years ago. The bullet has a significant effect on pressure.

 

[jrog100]

reloading manuals from the 70s list a max load of 11 grains of 2400 in the 38 special. there is no disclaimer that this powder/load shouldnt be shot in the k or j frame revolovers and those were around in the 70s. i think 2400 is a somewhat poor choice for 38 special because of the amount of poweder you have to use to get a good burn.

 

[gwpercle]

Here is data from the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual (1986)
38 Special
cast bullet - 38-158-SWC GC
dia. .358"
lube- RCBS Pistol
Powder - 2400
pistol primer = CCI 250 - Magnum Primer

Start Load : 9.0 grs. @ 926 fps

Maximum Load : 10.0 grs @ 1020 fps

Looking at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition (2010) there is no 2400 data for a 158 gr. bullet but there is data for the 155 gr. SWC GC #358156 which I cast and load ... but get this , with 2400 the
Start Load is 7.5 grs @ 760fps to a
Max Load of 8.3 grs. @ 867 fps and a
+P Load of 8.8 grs. @ 953 fps .

Interesting to see what RCBS came up with ...

I think I would start low and work up slowly ... 7.5 grs then 8.0 grs ...then see how things shake out and go even slower 8.2 grs ...8.3 grs...slow like molasses in winter time ... be careful .

When fired case extraction starts getting sticky ... Stop !

Just go slow and test carefully ... and with near max - heavy loads use good , new or almost new brass . Hot 357 Magnum loads take a toll on brass .
Load Safe & Good Luck
Gary

 

[Nevada Ed]

I will add to the 12 year old post;

that you should not wast 2400 powder in a..........

38 special, J frame, snub nose.

It is a waste of powder, tring to gain fps.

It works best with a 6" barrel, if you have one.

 

[Greyman50]

FWIW have usually used Bullseye and Unique for all 38 Spl. loads. 231 ball is also pretty good. Used Speer # 6,7 and 11? manuals and a few others for many years. I Never push Any load to max loads, just not worth the risks. Used 2400 in 357 Mag., 45 Colt and 44 Mag before selling them all. 44 Mag was way more than my hand(s) could take.