What is the significance...?

[Art Doc]

Of a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter loaded over 11 grains of 2400?

That's right, it duplicates the original 39/44 load. Came from the 9th edition of the Speer manual (1970) and this load is not designated as +P or restricted to certain revolvers. No warnings about not using this load in certain guns. Apparently Speer felt that any 38 Special could handle a 158 at 1155 FPS.

I will let you know how they shoot in my J frames.

 

[Muley Gil]

I shot some of these loads years ago in a 4" Colt Police Positive Special.

They kicked a mite.

 

[tops]

I have a Lyman book from the 60s and it gives 12.5 grs. of 2400 and 158 gr. with a gas check at 1240 fps. I have always loaded 12 grs. of 2400 and it averages 1194 fps. out of a 6 in. barrel. I have also used some of the 12 gr. loads in a 4 in. Police Postive. The buck and roar is awesome. Larry

 

[steveno]

in the 1958 Lyman cast bullet manual , page 88 , Elmer's 38 special load was 13.5 grains of 2400 and the 358429 173 grain swc. I don't think I would shoot that one in a "J" frame.

 

[maglvr]

"Elmer's 38 special load was 13.5 grains of 2400 and the 358429 173 grain swc."

That is by far my favorite load, I also use the same charge under a 160gr. LBT WFNPB and a 158gr. (unknown mold) WFNPB.
I am always amazed the first time I pull the trigger, that it is a "lowly .38 Spl." round in the chamber.
I use them in my 38-44's and Marlin lever gun.
While I have no doubts the 11gr. load mentioned by S.P. above, would work just fine in a K frame(with some heavy recoil I would imagine), I can say I have never tried it. Much less in a J frame.
As a side note, Elmer's recommended load for the Colt .41 frame guns(Official Police, Officer's Mod., Trooper etc.) was the 173gr. SWC over 12gr. 2400. I will be trying this soon!
You just have to LOVE what can be done with that "worthless .38 Special" that only has enough power to put holes in paper, out to 50ft. Not to mention the round is only marginal at best as a man stopper, and should never be used for today's Armour plated deer, that require a minimum of a 250gr., exploding tip bullet in the neighborhood of 3000FPS

 

[scooter123]

I shot some of these loads years ago in a 4" Colt Police Positive Special.

They kicked a mite.

I'll bet they kicked a mite. On my last Walmart run I noticed that they are now stocking a Federal Champion 357 Magnum for 21.97. Picked up both boxes. It's listed as a 158 gr. SJSP at 1240 fps. and it does "kick a mite" in my 620.

Frankly, IMO Speer was a bit nuts to list that particular load as a 38 spl., it's hot enough that it'll do some damage to an early S&W 38 spl. Frankly, I'd only run that load in a gun rated for today's 357 Magnums, IMO it's probably a bit too hot for a +P rated gun. It also clearly illustrates that the old 38/44 loading really was pushing Magnum power levels.

 

[cjw3]

I got 1100 fps with that load in my 8 3/8" K-.38 and 890 in my Model 15 CM.

I haven't tried them in any of my J-frames but would do so without any hesitation whatsoever. Keith describes putting 500 rounds of the '50's version of the .38-44 loads through both a Chief Special and a Centennial with no ill effects.

The guns may not be any the worse for wear; the same could not be said for your hand.....

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Of a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter loaded over 11 grains of 2400?

That's right, it duplicates the original 39/44 load. Came from the 9th edition of the Speer manual (1970) and this load is not designated as +P or restricted to certain revolvers. No warnings about not using this load in certain guns. Apparently Speer felt that any 38 Special could handle a 158 at 1155 FPS.

I will let you know how they shoot in my J frames.

Considering it's a 38/44 load that right there tells you what revolver it should be shot from. Speer considered a .38 Special that was built on the heavy N frame to be strong enough to handle that load.

I hope that J frame you speak of is a Steel .357 Magnum or things "might" get a little interesting when you shoot that load.

 

[beagleye]

This brings up an interesting subject.

I know these kinds of subjects can get people a little riled up and I don't want to, but... have any of ya'll done any deer hunting with loads like that?

Pete

 

[OFT II]

I put 11.5 grains of 2400 in my "38/44" loads with a 158 grain Gold Dot jacketed hollow point. I use this load in a '53 era H/D and my K frame 357s. I haven't loaded 357 cases in years. All my normal 38 Special loads get cast lead slugs so it's easy to tell the difference. Never tried it on a deer but it will render a grown coyote or javalina DRT.

 

[DGNY]

Thanks to SP for raising this question. My answer is that, in the 38-44, it [from recollection, employing the use of SR[?] 80 powder, antecedent of 2400] set off 80 years, and counting, of questing for high power loads. It also marked the transition from the black powder era in handguns to the modern era. Until then, the loads and pressures were essentially replicas of the use of XX grains of BP. Unique, earlier, was sort of a substitute when the black charge was reduced by 75-80% to yield the Unique charge, but that was mainly for its [relative] cleanliness.

After the 38-44, it was a new day starting with the .357 and its hearty early loads. SP's load was pioneer stock, with some versions heading north to the Elmer Keith heights [or depths] of 13.5 grains. To me that is clearly a .357 load, especially in a .38 Special case, and of use only in steel .357 guns, K-frame or equivalent and larger.

Regards,

Dyson

 

[Dave T]

I have been doing load development, trying to duplicate the 38/44 load as I understand it. The data I've seen claims 1150 fps with a 158g lead bullet. No barrel length is mentioned but given that 5" HDs seem to be the most frequently encountered I'm using that length for testing.

In my own 1937 5" HD 11g of 2400 under a 158g plated bullet gave me just under 1100 fps. That came from the #8 Speer Manual. From an article in Handloader I got a load of 13g, which pushed it a bit over 1200 fps. I've loaded a batch with 12g but have not yet chronographed them. I'm counting on this being the magic load for the bullet I'm using.

Dave

 

[DGNY]

38-44...

Would be interesting to know what design lead/lubaloy bullet was factory loaded in the early 38-44, including its seating depth. Likewise the case volume of the then .38 Special cases used for 38-44. I.e., could the cases have been semi- or even full-balloon in nature.

With these factors and maybe primer strength, we could do a better job of load simulation, besides the useful technique of seeking the announced factory velocity of ca. 1150 fps.

Regards,

Dyson

 

[Steve C]

+P as a designation did not exist in the 70's though high performance .38's where sold by manufacturers as "Police Loads". The Speer # 9 load data is an aberration and Speer sure changed their load recommendations by 1974 when they published their #10 edition. Perhaps the story that they'd got improperly calibrated copper slugs for their CUP pressure test barrel that resulted in over loads being published has some truth to it. Perhaps they didn't add the note that was in their #10 manual that stated; "The top loads listed should only be used in medium and heavy framed guns. Second listed loads are maximum for small and alloy framed guns." Perhaps they found that those who would use their manual don't necessarily read or comprehend the warnings and cautions.

It would be interesting to see a comparison between loads from previous Speer manuals to see if the oft quoted #9 was in line with #5, #6, #7, #8.

 

[6thtexas]

IIRC, that 13.5 gr 2400/358429 load was what Keith shot in the heavy frame .38s. With the .38 Spl. case the 358429 could be crimped in the proper place instead of over the front driving band when loaded in a .357 case in a M27. He also suggested (in the supplement section of "Sixguns") this load in the Model 19 as it did not develop the pressure of factory .357 cartridges of the time.

Also in "Sixguns", Keith spoke of the J frames as being strong guns as the bolt cuts were not directly over the chamber. In them he recommended 5.0 grains of Unique with the solid 358429 bullet. That load used to be listed in the Lyman manuals as not +P but the latest book or two just goes to 4.2 grains (again IIRC).

FWIW, I've run thousands of the 5.0 gr Unique/358429 loads through J frames and never had any problems. In the long run it seems to put less wear on a J than the Federal FBI load. Years ago I was issued the Federals and shot a lot of them through a M60 I had back then.

The Unique load is what's in my (another) M60 now. In the past I tried some 11.0 grains 2400/358429 in a M36. The extra recoil and lack of speed reacquiring the target wasn't worth the higher velocity and the extra wear and tear on me or the M36. It also really lit things up in bad light.

Also FWIW, I run 13.5 gr. 2400/358429 (loaded in .357 cases) in my M19. The M19's cylinder is long enough that one can crimp the bullet in the proper crimp groove and thus I figure the pressure should be a little less than with deep seating the bullet in the case. This load will kill a deer fine.

Anyway, my 2 cents worth. Y'all hash it out. I going South tomorrow early.

 

[kenjen]

my normal plinking load for the 38 is 5grs. unique with the 158 lswc. i use the same bullet and 11-12.5 of 2400 in my 357, very accurate and easy to shoot all day. i don't think i would want to shoot 11grs. of 2400 out of my 38, thats got to hurt...

 

[Paul5388]

Speer #8 shows 11.0 gr of 2400 with a magnum primer and 158 gr LSWC at 1155 fps. That was shot out of a 6" K-38 in Speer/DWM brass. Speer #10 doesn't show anything over 1000 fps, mainly because they had switched to swaged bullets.

This is what Elmer said and I don't see where the K frame is actually addressed.