larryofcc
Member
OK fine. Lets just agree to disagree. You do your thing and I will do mine. I rarely shoot my collectables in any event. Lets just drop it here. Big Larry
Right Ammo for 1951 K-38 Masterpiece
- Thread starter roadhog96
- Start date
Again, +P is not loaded to maximum allowable pressure, let alone higher. You apparently worry about +P wearing or damaging a gun but this is nonsense. Every 38 revolver is built to use 21,500 PSI ammo. Factory +P is loaded to 18,500 PSI.
SaxonPig; I find this statement you made very interesting. I don't think you made this up but were on earth do you get this information. How is it your the only one who knows these facts. If this is true it should be documented somewere and available to anyone interested in knowing these facts. Are you willing to give up your source of info. I personally would like to see these specs for myself rather than rely on it by here say only. I'm not saying your right or wrong and it seems your the only one who is able to produce numbers to support your statement. I guess you could say I'd like a second opinon on this because if you can safely use +P ammo in older K-38 models why the heck doesn't everyone agree on this. Some say it's ok and some say no way. I just want to know the true facts then I can do what ever I want within these safe guidelines.
SaxonPig; I find this statement you made very interesting. I don't think you made this up but were on earth do you get this information. How is it your the only one who knows these facts. If this is true it should be documented somewere and available to anyone interested in knowing these facts. Are you willing to give up your source of info. I personally would like to see these specs for myself rather than rely on it by here say only. I'm not saying your right or wrong and it seems your the only one who is able to produce numbers to support your statement. I guess you could say I'd like a second opinon on this because if you can safely use +P ammo in older K-38 models why the heck doesn't everyone agree on this. Some say it's ok and some say no way. I just want to know the true facts then I can do what ever I want within these safe guidelines.
nevada duke
Member
- Joined
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The 38 Special is a fine old cartridge which has been turned out to pasture by the ammo manufacturers. Back in the 70's of the last century there was a company called HI-VEL which pioneered the idea of light hollow point bullets at high velocities to obtain maximum stopping power. I obtained a couple of boxes of this 125 gr. ammo just before I left California for the last time.
I also purchased a S&W K-38, ser. no. 100xxx just before we left for good, I think built in 1950. An old friend had to get rid of his daddy's target pistol because his PC wife could not stand to have it in the house. It was/is well worn but still functional, and a new hand brought the timing back in order soon after the move.
After we got settled in our new home in Nevada, I had some time to try out the new/ old K-38 and my only other center fire revolver at the time, a Ruger Security Six. The result: the old K-38 digested over 100 of my cast bullet hand loads and then a box and a half of the Super-Vel ammo. Wow I was impressed with the results on water jug targets and on another day some water melons. I did not have access to a chronograph back in those days but that ammo was HOT. Shortly after I traded off the Ruger for another S&W, another story some time.
The old K-38 has been traded off, then traded back and it has had a steady diet of 150 gr. cast bullets, or boolits, over 5.0 gr, sometimes 5.5 gr. of Unique and sometimes Herco for over thirty years. With the new fangled JHP 125 gr. bullets, enough Unique or Herco to get up around 1100 - 1150 fps. That old gun has been on many trips into the Nevada outback, camping, hunting and fishing. It still locks up tight, timing is right on and the trigger pull is light,smooth and predictable. Now when I shoot a 38, it is mostly in a nice Model 15 4", a little newer and handier to carry.
Today's standard and so called plus P ammo, is only there to sell first the wonder nines and now the plastic 40's IMHO only.
If that old K-38 was my only handgun, I would still be well armed.
My best regards, Nevada Duke
I also purchased a S&W K-38, ser. no. 100xxx just before we left for good, I think built in 1950. An old friend had to get rid of his daddy's target pistol because his PC wife could not stand to have it in the house. It was/is well worn but still functional, and a new hand brought the timing back in order soon after the move.
After we got settled in our new home in Nevada, I had some time to try out the new/ old K-38 and my only other center fire revolver at the time, a Ruger Security Six. The result: the old K-38 digested over 100 of my cast bullet hand loads and then a box and a half of the Super-Vel ammo. Wow I was impressed with the results on water jug targets and on another day some water melons. I did not have access to a chronograph back in those days but that ammo was HOT. Shortly after I traded off the Ruger for another S&W, another story some time.
The old K-38 has been traded off, then traded back and it has had a steady diet of 150 gr. cast bullets, or boolits, over 5.0 gr, sometimes 5.5 gr. of Unique and sometimes Herco for over thirty years. With the new fangled JHP 125 gr. bullets, enough Unique or Herco to get up around 1100 - 1150 fps. That old gun has been on many trips into the Nevada outback, camping, hunting and fishing. It still locks up tight, timing is right on and the trigger pull is light,smooth and predictable. Now when I shoot a 38, it is mostly in a nice Model 15 4", a little newer and handier to carry.
Today's standard and so called plus P ammo, is only there to sell first the wonder nines and now the plastic 40's IMHO only.
If that old K-38 was my only handgun, I would still be well armed.
My best regards, Nevada Duke
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Roadhog95- This info is readily available from SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) and from the ammo manufacturers. All one need do is look, and that's what I have done rather than rely on gossip and misinformation.
"I rarely shoot my collectables in any event."
There's the problem right there. I don't own any collectibles. I own guns... that I use as intended.
"I rarely shoot my collectables in any event."
There's the problem right there. I don't own any collectibles. I own guns... that I use as intended.
One reason you don't see a lot of others jumping in and telling you the same thing that SaxonPig has tried to explain is because we see this same debate pop-up from people (new to revolvers or new to this forum) about every 2 weeks and most folks get tired of explaining that you can safely shoot +P ammo in a K-38, Model 10, Model 36, ... etc, etc, ..........SaxonPig has tried to give you the correct information!!!
Don
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Thanks for that, I will look into this and see if I can make some headway. I to would rather not rely on gossip and misinformation either. Thank you sir!
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
SaxonPig, thank you for that link I found it very informative and I think everyone should read it. I wasnt trying to blow you off after your last post, I've just been very busy and have spent a good amount of time doing research on this subject. I've done a lot of reading lately trying to get a handle on all these numbers and for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would not use +P ammo if the pressure rating is much lower than the standard rating set for a .38 special which is 21,500 PSI. Ammo today is much milder than what it was when these guns were manufactured. So if it was fine to use it then, why is it bad now?
I asked the person working at one of the local gun shops if I could use +P ammo in my K-38 and he said if it wasn't marked +P on the gun then I couldn't use it. Obviously he hasn't got a clue what he was talking about.
I'm still not sure I understand how the numbers work. If a round is loaded with less grain, how can it have a higher velocity than a round with more grain? How or what gives it a +P rating. Any feedback on this would be a big help.
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tom turner
US Veteran
SaxonPig is generally right on about everything he writes!
BTW, welcome to the forum roadhog96. There are some very, very heavyweight S&W collectors and long-time experts on this forum . . . along with the REST of us who make this THE place on the internet to learn about Smith's vintage products that so many of us love so much.
LET ME GO ABOUT ANSWERING YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION from a slightly different angle . . .
When I take my smiths out to the range and practice, I learned a long time ago that it was easier on the shooter (me) if I loaded my practice ammo "light." Less jolt on the wrists, joints, etc. I shot a lot of handgun matches (and many more times the practice sessions) for years and this really paid off for me, as I handloaded my own on the low end on purpose!
A second benefit of reduced recoil is that the shooter is much less prone to develop an accuracy-killing "flinch!" This all paid off with sharper skills come match time!
Oh yeah . . . the THIRD benefit to me was this . . . that when I was firing thousands of rounds through my various handguns in practice . . . the lighter loads prevented my firearms from wearing out too!
Heck, to an active competitor the gun itself is the CHEAP part of the sport. Running 250-1,000 rounds a week through those guns was the costly part!
TODAY
I only shoot occasional area matches for fun today and don't practice too much, but I still prefer to "load light" in practice. I do shoot some hot stuff of course from time to time but do not see any need to wear out myself or my guns with unnecessary stuff.
For hunting, and for self defense, it is a different matter. I use very heavy bullets and hot velocity in my S&W .44 Magnum (M29-5 w/6" barrel), Federal's "CastCore" 300 grain hardcast flat-point premium hunting ammunition.
Heck, in self defense and big game hunting situations you'll never "feel" the stiff recoil at all, even with a 300 grain bullet!!!
FULL CIRCLE . . .
Is that wimpy, modern-day +P stuff safe in my nice 1950-made M&P?
ALL DAY LONG . . . but again, echoing what others have said, "why shoot the expensive hot stuff in practice?"
And yes, I've shot 158 grain LSWC-HP +p (original FBI spec) in this revolver no problem. In practice I'm much more favorable to handloaded 148 grain flat-point lead wadcutters at lazy velocities . . . the most accurate and fun-to-shoot .38 Special load ever invented!!!
HERE'S MY 1950-made M&P . . .
Hope this helps,
Tom
PS: I took this old gun (one year older than me) to an area Steel Match last fall, and used it with jacketed store-bought ammo to beat the times of every auto shooter AND revolver shooter there! Heck, I wanted to celebrate turning 60 . . . and use an "ancient" a 60 year old gun to see if both of us were still up to the task. We were! A sixty year old M&P in good shape is still an incredible weapon!!!
Under the pressure of the clock, they simply couldn't shoot MISS enough to beat me! Nice to know I can still do it too against the locals!
PPS: The second fastest time was ALSO a revolver shooter.
BTW, welcome to the forum roadhog96. There are some very, very heavyweight S&W collectors and long-time experts on this forum . . . along with the REST of us who make this THE place on the internet to learn about Smith's vintage products that so many of us love so much.
LET ME GO ABOUT ANSWERING YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION from a slightly different angle . . .
When I take my smiths out to the range and practice, I learned a long time ago that it was easier on the shooter (me) if I loaded my practice ammo "light." Less jolt on the wrists, joints, etc. I shot a lot of handgun matches (and many more times the practice sessions) for years and this really paid off for me, as I handloaded my own on the low end on purpose!
A second benefit of reduced recoil is that the shooter is much less prone to develop an accuracy-killing "flinch!" This all paid off with sharper skills come match time!
Oh yeah . . . the THIRD benefit to me was this . . . that when I was firing thousands of rounds through my various handguns in practice . . . the lighter loads prevented my firearms from wearing out too!
Heck, to an active competitor the gun itself is the CHEAP part of the sport. Running 250-1,000 rounds a week through those guns was the costly part!
TODAY
I only shoot occasional area matches for fun today and don't practice too much, but I still prefer to "load light" in practice. I do shoot some hot stuff of course from time to time but do not see any need to wear out myself or my guns with unnecessary stuff.
For hunting, and for self defense, it is a different matter. I use very heavy bullets and hot velocity in my S&W .44 Magnum (M29-5 w/6" barrel), Federal's "CastCore" 300 grain hardcast flat-point premium hunting ammunition.
Heck, in self defense and big game hunting situations you'll never "feel" the stiff recoil at all, even with a 300 grain bullet!!!
FULL CIRCLE . . .
Is that wimpy, modern-day +P stuff safe in my nice 1950-made M&P?
ALL DAY LONG . . . but again, echoing what others have said, "why shoot the expensive hot stuff in practice?"
And yes, I've shot 158 grain LSWC-HP +p (original FBI spec) in this revolver no problem. In practice I'm much more favorable to handloaded 148 grain flat-point lead wadcutters at lazy velocities . . . the most accurate and fun-to-shoot .38 Special load ever invented!!!
HERE'S MY 1950-made M&P . . .
Hope this helps,
Tom
PS: I took this old gun (one year older than me) to an area Steel Match last fall, and used it with jacketed store-bought ammo to beat the times of every auto shooter AND revolver shooter there! Heck, I wanted to celebrate turning 60 . . . and use an "ancient" a 60 year old gun to see if both of us were still up to the task. We were! A sixty year old M&P in good shape is still an incredible weapon!!!
Under the pressure of the clock, they simply couldn't shoot MISS enough to beat me! Nice to know I can still do it too against the locals!
PPS: The second fastest time was ALSO a revolver shooter.
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Tom, thanks for that, much appreciated. I was born in 1951 and apparently my K-38 Materpiece was born the same year, so the two things that make it very special to me is we not only celerbrate the same birthday but that it was my father inlaws police revolver that he carried on his job.
I agree with you on using the light loads for practice shooting, it makes a lot of sense. The only reason I was concerned about using +P ammo is mainly for personal defense ammo which is generally a +P Hollow Point load. As you know Hollow Point ammo need high velocity to work properly and I would like to get some practice time with +P defense ammo to get to know how the gun would react with it and at the same time sharpen my skills using it in the event that someday I might be in a position to have to use it. Nothing worst than being caught in a position for the first time with no experience or knowledge about what your about to get yourself into. I am confident now that it is safe to use the +P without causing any harm to the revolver. It would not be something that would be a regular diet for the old Masterpiece.
By the way is that the original finish on your revolver it looks incredible. Yours is the first one that I've seen from 1950 that hasn't been Blued, very nice.
I agree with you on using the light loads for practice shooting, it makes a lot of sense. The only reason I was concerned about using +P ammo is mainly for personal defense ammo which is generally a +P Hollow Point load. As you know Hollow Point ammo need high velocity to work properly and I would like to get some practice time with +P defense ammo to get to know how the gun would react with it and at the same time sharpen my skills using it in the event that someday I might be in a position to have to use it. Nothing worst than being caught in a position for the first time with no experience or knowledge about what your about to get yourself into. I am confident now that it is safe to use the +P without causing any harm to the revolver. It would not be something that would be a regular diet for the old Masterpiece.
By the way is that the original finish on your revolver it looks incredible. Yours is the first one that I've seen from 1950 that hasn't been Blued, very nice.
tom turner
US Veteran
Hi,
Yes, the finish is original. Enjoy your M&P. I always read that everyone needed at least one and they were right!
BTW, when using it in the match, I added a Tyler T-grip to it so there was no way it would torque slightly out of perfect alignment in my hand when shooting fast multiple double action shots during the match.
Shooting a match will show a person really fast if the gun fits their hand perfectly. If it doesn't you'll have a long, embarrassing day but . . . for me . . . all my S&W revolvers fit my hand perfectly. I can't say that about some high-cap automatics.
T.
Yes, the finish is original. Enjoy your M&P. I always read that everyone needed at least one and they were right!
BTW, when using it in the match, I added a Tyler T-grip to it so there was no way it would torque slightly out of perfect alignment in my hand when shooting fast multiple double action shots during the match.
Shooting a match will show a person really fast if the gun fits their hand perfectly. If it doesn't you'll have a long, embarrassing day but . . . for me . . . all my S&W revolvers fit my hand perfectly. I can't say that about some high-cap automatics.
T.
I hate to see a good unwinnable discussion drift to a close, so let me fan the embers with a thought experiment.
Two mid-century .38s are available for purchase. They are identical in every respect except that one has been fired thousands of times with a steady diet of low-speed 148 gr wadcutter match ammo, and the other one has been fired the same number of times with +P ammo or its exact equivalent. Assuming that you are driven by a policy of self-interest and maximum expected satisfaction with a current investment, which one would you buy?
I have the same ankles, knees and hip joints now that I did when I weighed 60 pounds less half a century ago. My joints are still working fairly well, thank heavens, but I can't help thinking that arithmetic alone says they would be in even better shape now if they had not had to carry the extra step-tons all those years when I was heavier than I needed to be.
I don't expect +P ammo to blow up a revolver, and I realize that +P rounds are warm rather than hot compared to standard loads. But I do believe that accumulated minor stress from a constant diet of +P rounds will have some kind of cumulative wear and tear on a gun that a steady diet of lighter loads would not produce.
Two mid-century .38s are available for purchase. They are identical in every respect except that one has been fired thousands of times with a steady diet of low-speed 148 gr wadcutter match ammo, and the other one has been fired the same number of times with +P ammo or its exact equivalent. Assuming that you are driven by a policy of self-interest and maximum expected satisfaction with a current investment, which one would you buy?
I have the same ankles, knees and hip joints now that I did when I weighed 60 pounds less half a century ago. My joints are still working fairly well, thank heavens, but I can't help thinking that arithmetic alone says they would be in even better shape now if they had not had to carry the extra step-tons all those years when I was heavier than I needed to be.
I don't expect +P ammo to blow up a revolver, and I realize that +P rounds are warm rather than hot compared to standard loads. But I do believe that accumulated minor stress from a constant diet of +P rounds will have some kind of cumulative wear and tear on a gun that a steady diet of lighter loads would not produce.
Without question I would take the one that hasn't been beaten to death, same goes for anything else that I buy used. I would try to get the one that has the least amount of wear and tear.
What would have happened if say the ammo companies had never stopped producing ammo the way it was made years ago. And you were in the same scenario, but these two revolvers lived and thrived on that ammo back then. You wouldn't think twice about it, but you would probably take the one that looked the nicest seeing how they both used the only type of ammo that was available.
If the +P ammo today is milder than than what these guns started out with then using +P ammo should not be creating the same stress on these revolvers that they were designed to withstand back then. If you can literally shake the empty cases out of the cylinder without using the extractor, I wouldn't think there's to much pressure being produced.
Like I said earlier, I only asked if it was safe to use because just about all the personal defense ammo is rated +P and there's way to much controversy on this subject. Hollow Points need to be high volicty to work properally.
I'm new to handguns and I have a lot to learn and I admit it. I just bought my first box of ammo and guess what I bought, Federal .38 Special 158 grain LRN with a muzzle velocity of 770 FPS. I'll probably try some FMJ rounds next time but I'm not looking to beat this gun up, I just want to get to know it and appreciated it for what it is.
I will try the +P defense ammo to get a feel for how the gun reacts to it. I do not intend on using +P ammo as a primary diet.
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