9mm Load data? Clays [Hodgdon] - NOT UNIVERSAL

Hello all.

Last year I loaded a bunch of Berry's 9mm 124gr HBFP (Hallow Base Flat Point), with Universal Clays to great success. I use them for range rounds, but would like to get into some local competitions this year, and am interested in keeping making sure they would meet the necessary velocity requirements (although I don't know what those are, off hand).

I recently purchased a 4lb pound tub of Clays [Hodgdon] powder, without realizing it wasn't the "Universal."

I have been looking around for correct load data for this round and powder, with mixed results. On Berry's website it says to use low end FMJ load data with their plated bullets.

Hodgon states this for FMJ stats:

Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com

125 GR. SIE FMJ (note, this is for Siera, but my bullet is a flat point, not round nose)
Min 3.5 grs of Hodgdon Clays
Max 3.7 grs of Hodgdon Clays

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This seems a little high, seeing that I use 3.8grs to 4grs of Clays in in my 230gr plated round nose 45acp rounds. The only way this makes sense to me, is that the 45acp has a lower velocity.

I would feel safer going with mid to high rage Lead load data:
Hodgon states this for lead stats:

Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com

125 GR. LCN (again, make note the my bullet is flat point, not conical nose)
Min 2.9 grs of Hodgdon Clays
Max 3.3 grs of Hodgdon Clays

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I went ahead and made some test rounds with 3.6grs (give or take a 0.1gr), but I am hesitant to shoot them. I don't want to:
A) Blow my gun and or self up.
B) Get a bullet lodged in my barrel.

I have to find the sweet spot here, and get the best load data. Des anyone have experience with this powder and bullet? Any and all recommendation and options are appreciated.

Thanks,
-Ethan

I load the Berrys' 124gr HBFP but I do use Universal (4.2.grs) and not Clays. I did try the Clays with regular 124gr LTC bullets but could not get them close to minor power factor without going above recommendations. I think you'll find the same to be true with the Berrys'.

With Clays, be very, very careful. It pressure spikes badly when it gets near the top & that happens quickly. Bunnyfart only loads w/ Clays.

IDPA power factors 125 minor 165 Major
USPSA Power factors 125 minor 165 Major (must be 40 cal or larger for major except in open)
I use clays for every thing I can. You can make all your power factors with lead bullets and clays no problems.

Clays is about the cleanest burning powder I have tried but it doesn't meter very precisely.

I've used Clays in 9mm because I have alot of it for loading 12ga.
115gr and 125gr both lead bullet loads. Mid range loads right off the reloading chart on the webpage. Nothing fancy, cheap bullets when and where I find them.
They worked pretty well in everthing I use them in, Luger, Star B, Walther P38, P1, S&W 39.
Some of the Lugers were better than others of course as as far as feeding, but a couple function perfectly with the 125gr loads.
The Star B-Super didn't like the 115gr either sometimes. Occasional fail to feed (1 in 15 perhaps). The others,,no problems.
Clean shooting. Just for informal range shooting, nothing special as far as competition goes.
The Walther P1 is the most accurate of the bunch & with both loads.

The P1 gets most of the use now. The others too difficult to manipulate.

3Gunnah said:

IDPA power factors 125 minor 165 Major
USPSA Power factors 125 minor 165 Major (must be 40 cal or larger for major except in open)
I use clays for every thing I can. You can make all your power factors with lead bullets and clays no problems.

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Could you please explain what that means. I have yet to compete in any of these events, but hope to this year, so this terminology is all jargon to me. I have witnessed them at my local range, and they seem to be a lot of fun.

What power factors are we talking here? I am guessing velocities and such? How else can these rounds be measured?

- Also, I shot 10 of the rounds mentioned above, without incident, this morning. They did seem kind of "puffy."

I have used Clays (4grs) to load plated 230gr 45ACP rounds, without issue (aside from crimping - which seems to have been fixed). Do you think those would meet power factors?

Power factor is determined by bullet weight times velocity. IE a 230 grain 45 acp bullet going 725 FPS = a power factor of 166.75 just above the 165 needed to make Major in both sports. I would recommend at least a PF of 169 to be safe (all crony's vary a little and theirs is the one that counts).

I use 4.0 clays for 200 grn lead 45 acp loads for practice. I have not checked velocity but it works my 1911's well and feels good.

I hope this helps.

3Gunnah said:

IDPA power factors 125 minor 165 Major
USPSA Power factors 125 minor 165 Major (must be 40 cal or larger for major except in open)
I use clays for every thing I can. You can make all your power factors with lead bullets and clays no problems.

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You have to push Clays really hard to make major in either 40 or 45, no thanks. Clays gets really weird at the top end & pressure spikes are not uncommon. So get a little bullet setback & bang, not good. I worked up a 200gr load using Clays, 4.3gr barely makes 820fps in two 5" guns & too close to the top end to push that to 850fps. I wouldn't even consider trying to make major w/ a 180gr 40. There are several better choices for major loads in both.

4 grains of Clays, behind a 230 fmj was my major load for USPSA and IDPA for years.
I've never tried Clays for 9mm minor because everything I've read said that for some reason, accuracy just wasn't there.

I've had good luck with Clays for 185gr .45ACP loads, but I stopped using it because of its lack of versatility and its peakiness. I wouldn't use it for 9mm.

No offense intended, but if you really mistook Clays for Universal you should consider using Unique instead. It's generally acknowledged that Hodgdon's naming scheme (Clays, Universal Clays, and International Clays) is idiotic and leads to loading mishaps, but referring to them as "Clays" and "Universal" makes it easy enough to be safe.

fredj338 said:

You have to push Clays really hard to make major in either 40 or 45, no thanks. Clays gets really weird at the top end & pressure spikes are not uncommon. So get a little bullet setback & bang, not good. I worked up a 200gr load using Clays, 4.3gr barely makes 820fps in two 5" guns & too close to the top end to push that to 850fps. I wouldn't even consider trying to make major w/ a 180gr 40. There are several better choices for major loads in both.

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If We are talking about jacketed bullets I would agree with you. But with lead bullets you do not have to push it that hard to make major, and I find it to be a very clean burning powder. Check out the data on Hodgdon's web site and then check a few loading manuals. You should see a few different "MAX" loads. Then it is just trial and error, Watching for pressure signs as you work up. It might be better said clays is not a great choice for a novice reloader trying to make a Major power factor for the first time on his first press. But I will still contend that it is a great powder for Major power loads in 40 and 45 with cast lead bullets.

you may do well to try to trade for a powder more suited to your needs on one of the reloading forums. Better to lose a little money on shipping and trade than to blow up a gun. I like unique. Its very versitile. I have 9mm, 38spl, and 45acp loads worked up with it and all shoot great.

3Gunnah said:

If We are talking about jacketed bullets I would agree with you. But with lead bullets you do not have to push it that hard to make major, and I find it to be a very clean burning powder. Check out the data on Hodgdon's web site and then check a few loading manuals. You should see a few different "MAX" loads. Then it is just trial and error, Watching for pressure signs as you work up. It might be better said clays is not a great choice for a novice reloader trying to make a Major power factor for the first time on his first press. But I will still contend that it is a great powder for Major power loads in 40 and 45 with cast lead bullets.

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Well, we will just have to disagree. I don't think any uberfast pwoder makes 40 major safely, w/ a margin of error, using any bullet type. Lead bullets are not necesarily lower pressure & playing w/ a spikey powder like Clays @ the top end to make major is just asking for a KB if you get a setback. No reason either, move up to W231, easily get there w/ a bit of safety margin. This entire idea of using uberfast powders for some mythical recoil reduction is just foolish IMO, epsecially as advice to noob reloaders that think a little more powder is fine & w/ powders like Clays, max means just that, max. The ne t increase is likely to cause a spike & very undesireable result. You might be able to just make major w/ 5" bbls, but not w/ 4" guns & be in the safe zone. SO again, why when there are better choices. TG is in the same catagory for 40 IMO.

fredj338 said:

Well, we will just have to disagree. I don't think any uberfast pwoder makes 40 major safely, w/ a margin of error, using any bullet type. Lead bullets are not necesarily lower pressure & playing w/ a spikey powder like Clays @ the top end to make major is just asking for a KB if you get a setback. No reason either, move up to W231, easily get there w/ a bit of safety margin. This entire idea of using uberfast powders for some mythical recoil reduction is just foolish IMO, epsecially as advice to noob reloaders that think a little more powder is fine & w/ powders like Clays, max means just that, max. The ne t increase is likely to cause a spike & very undesireable result. You might be able to just make major w/ 5" bbls, but not w/ 4" guns & be in the safe zone. SO again, why when there are better choices. TG is in the same catagory for 40 IMO.

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I have loaded and fired over 40,000 180 grain 40 cal lead Major PF loads with Titegroup over the last 6 years or so. Clays and Titegroup are very popular with IDPA/USPSA shooters due to low charge weight's giving up to 1,700 rounds from one pound of powder. I also agree that lead bullets are not lower pressure than jacketed.....Infact they create much more pressure for the same bullet weight. That is one reason you can get to power factor with less powder thus staying with in the safe relm of pressure and charge weight. I am sure Brian Enos would not use clays if it was not a safe powder for major PF. I am not trying to Down play concerns that you have about these powders. Just saying that given care,and proper use these powders are fine for use in action shooting Loads.