Need schooling on Titegroup powder

Maximumbob54

Maximumbob54

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Hodgdon Titegroup powder gets some good trash talking for causing various maladies in ka-boom talk. I bought some a while back as I was told it meters well and would make some great 9mm and .40SW loads. I have yet to use any but it looks a bit like Win 231 and seems to measure about as well. It has scads of load data available for it in all sorts of pistol loads. I get that it is one of those things that a little goes a long ways but that's true of lots of pistol powders. I see it listed as having a slower burn rate than Bullseye but I'm sure since we are talking microseconds or something else in tiny measures of time that isn't saying much but still I don't hear anyone disparage Bullseye for being a blow up your gun type of powder.

So what gives? I know it's a bad idea to use fast burning powders in magnum. I get that you have to check your loads for double charges and that with these minimal use powders it's harder to see with your eye. It just seems like Titegroup is the whipping boy of powders.

What gives???
 
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its probably fine and dandy in most of the auto pistol calibers where its bad habits are more easily mitigated.
Still don't use it though, there always seems to be something a little better.
 
I found that Titegroup burns very hot and melts lead bullets. So does Bullseye to a lesser extent. There is more data available for Bullseye, so I chose that.

I agree that if you are concerned about the tiny charges in large cases issue with Titegroup, it doesn't make much sense to use Bullseye since it has the same issue.
 
Bob,
#1: Case fill. Nonexistent! Take 3.7gr of W231/HP-48 and put it in a 38spl case. (Maximum load for a 158gr LSWC)Notice case fill. Now, take 3.8gr of Titegroup and put it in a case and notice case fill. (Maximum charge for 158gr LSWC)
You are going to see a VAST difference in the amount of case fill. I want to be the robot on Lost in Space and say: DANGER, DANGER, DANGER, WILL ROBINSON or Maximumbob as the case may be. This is an accident waiting to happen for a novice and even some really old handloaders.....and, anyone in between.

#2: Melted bases on lead bullets. Check your accuracy. Check for leading. Recover some bullets that are shot into soft material and look at the bases....No, I shoot 99.999999% cast bullets from my handguns.

#3: And, I suppose that this is a positive: It is supposed to be position insensitive. Um, hogwash.......Run loads over your chronograph with the gun tilted up each time before firing, and then run the same type of load with the gun pointed down before firing. It may be less but, marketing is just that, marketing.

It isn't that one charge could cause a KB, that isn't what I have been saying. But there is very little doubt, if you do the first test I suggest, that a double charge couldn't go unnoticed thereby causing a KB.

And listen, I know this sounds harsh or that I have a bone to pick or whatever.......I just want folks to be safe. I feel that this powder makes it too easy for someone to inadvertently be unsafe and they or a loved one could get hurt or maimed. I LOVE Hodgdon powders. Most of my loads from mild to wild depend on one or another of their great powders. Just not this one.


We are all grown ups and you all do what you want. To each one his own.......Just my perspective.....
 
I've used tight group with lead bullets and it works as well as any other fast pistol powder. Tried it because of the position insensitive claim. It is a very dense and fine powder and takes up little room in the case. Double or triple charges could go unnoticed especially if using a progressive press without powder cop or some other lock out type die that can detect over charges. Visual checks of charged cases are difficult because of the little volume a typical pistol charge occupies.

I've seen a few pics of KB's on the web where someone was using it in a high pressure and large volume "super magnum" case. If you are going to use TG you need to be a little extra diigent on your quality control.
 
Nothing wrong with it for me except that it turns the plastic on my powder measure yellow due to its higher nitroglycerin content. Bullseye won't do this. I know grand master using it and shooting 1490 in PPC matches using .38 spcl. Ok, it is denser than most powder, but if you pay attention while reloading, it is not a problem. You should give it a try!

Guy -
 
I've used a bunch of it, currently use it for my bullseye loads (38/357) along with bullseye powder, so the claim of poor accuracy hasn't been my experience or any of the other shooters who use it regularly for our 25 & 50yd loads. It does burn hot. As long as you're loading skills are sharp it shouldn't present any problems. Also makes fun reduced loads in the long cases. Used it for cowboy matches before finding trail boss.
 
I use it in 9mm and 45ACP, but not under lead bullets. Works well at the lower end of the tables, similar to Bullseye. I'd use it up starting at the low end of your data. Meters very well, works well with plated and jacketed bullets. You will find your brass is noticeably hotter when you pick it up, and it will leave significant black staining on the outside of the case. Your barrel will also feel hotter when shooting it. There's good data on the Hodgdon site for both calibers you're considering it for, but recognize the min/max range can be somewhat narrow compared to other powders. I've found that the powder charges with Titegroup are very close to Bullseye in 9mm and 45ACP. May be similar for 40S&W?
 
I can not say for sure as I have never used it but how is the possible event of a double charge any different than using another powder????

I use a lot of Bullseye, I certainly do not check every case for how much powder is in there. Whats the difference?? The little turret goes round and round, I drop the powder, seat a bullet and move on. I do spot checks every 10 rounds or so but even that is not gonna catch all the others.
:confused:
 
I started using it several years ago in a lot of differnt calibers.
I have never had a problem with any of the accuracy issues others seem to complain about. I like it because it seems to me to burn a little cleaner than say Unique,231,2400 and some others that were my staple for 20+ years. I pay close attention to all of the variables involved in handloading. I shoot mostly revolvers in the handgun and the forcing cone gap alows a lot more crud to build up on the gun while shooting. Its a personal preference like anything here on the fourm we could argue for hours about. Try it yourself first hand knowledge is the best.
 
I've been loading with it exclusively for the last 5 years. I load 32 S&W, 38 SPL, 357 MAG, 41 MAG, 44 MAG, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt. I'm on my 3rd 8# container not to mention all the 1# cans I used. Accuracy is great, leading isn't bad and it doesn't seem any dirtier than any other powder.
 
Rule3 said:
I can not say for sure as I have never used it but how is the possible event of a double charge any different than using another powder????

I use a lot of Bullseye, I certainly do not check every case for how much powder is in there. Whats the difference?? The little turret goes round and round, I drop the powder, seat a bullet and move on. I do spot checks every 10 rounds or so but even that is not gonna catch all the others.
:confused:
Click to expand...

You are telling on yourself and don't even realize it! You have never worked with this powder.......go get some. $18 -$20 and give it a try.

The difference is NOT increased ability to have a double charge or triple charge, it is in the increased ability NOT to be able to detect it.

Please change your reloading habits. Before you seat a bullet, make sure there is powder in each and every case. In most of the cases you reload, it will fill a case enough to be seen and be seen well. Titegroup does not afford that luxury.

Let's say, your powder measure develops a hiccup using the two powders, Titegroup and Bullseye. Titegroup is so dense, that a .5gr change will not be caught, light or heavy. That is not the same with a host of other powders if the reloader is doing his due diligence and paying attention. A good one can tell the difference IF there is enough difference in volume to notice. Titegroup does not to that.



I am heading off to work. Tell you what I will do or I challenge someone that has both powders to do, take pictures of and post.

3.5gr of Bullseye in a 38Spl case, 3.7gr of Titegroup in the same type of case.

The powder type, as long as it flows through your equipment, does not add to the possibility of having a double or triple charge, it just adds to the inability to be able to detect one.........Either way, doesn't matter if one gets to the firing line.
 
Skip, I am going to take you up on that challenge not as I don't believe you but because I want to see it first hand. I'm due to cast up another pile of Lee's 124gr TC TL 9mm bullets and I have used both Bullseye and Win 231 with great accuracy or at least as good as my glasses and wobbly hands can shoot. I will try a short run of Tightgroup with them and take pics during the loading process, any leading that happens, and I might even show my (lack of) shooting skills on the target. As this will be 9mm cases I will see how well or impossible to keep track of variation in powder drop. I would assume that would be the easiest to see in the case. The gun will be the OUTSTANDING M&P9c!!! Man I never thought I would love a poly frame gun like I love this one.
 
Bob, let us know the results. I can be WAY wrong but, by my perspective, Titegroup just has way too little in a case. Now, in the 9mm, it may not make a difference visually. Again, that will be perspective.

But, thanks for the heads up...........Let us know.


Oh, by the way, should you prove me wrong in my assumptions, I am 100% prepared to retract any of my statements that you feel are wrong.

;)

Let's take the time to prove it out...........
 
On the plus side Titegroup provides excellent velocity uniformity. On the minus side is burns very hot with it's high nitroglycerin content, has a lot of very fine particles which are seen on the shellplate and is very dense so one cannot see a double charge except in a 9mm or perhaps 40 S&W case. I no longer use it.
 
I do all my loading on Lyman All Americans. I have one for each caliber along with a dedicated RCBS powder measure. I use 50 round loading blocks and count each round at each step in the process. With this method you are in effect checking yourself every 5th round (end of each row). There's no doubt that a double or even triple charge would be hard to detect. That's why you pay close attention and avoid distractions when reloading.
 
as I think of it in more depth after having slept and thus more capable of the art of thought, the purpose of TG would seem to be a powder to address the needs of the reloader seeking economy. The maximum rounds per pound folks, looking to punch holes in paper.
as was pointed out, the stuff it a bit too hot for lead and probably should be left to at least plated bullets ... this fails the economy equation.
Well your going to test drive it in 9MM .. this might prove to fit into the nature of TG a bit better than it would in a 38 or 357. do two strings .. one with cast as you have mentioned, and a reasonable facsimile there of in plated. one or more of them will be a useful load at the end of the day allowing you to use up the rest of it before either going to something else or getting more of it.

Yours is an experiment I'd likely not conduct. I don't engineer ammo for paper punching. Every load established on my bench has a purpose off the range be it critters or combat. 357's 44's 45's 308's 30-06's 458's 223's and nearly all other caliber of guns were not designed for paper but rather for food gathering or fighting. thus, I load accordingly.
If I were to segregate a cartridge as a dedicated target shooting round, it would be the least exploited of all .. the 25 ACP
in a proper target gun it would make holes in paper with the best of them with the lowest operating cost of any re-loadable cartridge on earth.
a bucket of brass, primers, a few pounds of powder and perhaps 50 pounds of lead and you'd have a lifetime supply.
 
tightgroup ???

I have read almost all the comments on tightgroup and bulleye powders and their attributes. Tightgroup must not be a bad powder as it is the most used powder in IDPA pistol matches, with apx 73% of the shooters using this powder. I have 1st hand experience with bulleyes and tightgroup, they are both dense and a little goes along way. I personally have a little pin light mounted on my progressive press so that I can inspect each cartridge loaded as it goes round and round. I load tighgroup now that I have tried it , as it does burn cleaner and my loads seem to print a little tighter than with bulleye. I have loaded tightgroup in all of my pistols, from 9mm,357, and 45ACP, it works just great and accuracy is better than with bulleye. Shooting upwards at squirrels and downward at snakes , I just can't see any difference. One should check each load as it only takes a second and yes you can tell if it is a double charge. Yes it is harder to tell a double charge compared to unique or power pistol just don't get distracted and pay attention to what you are doing and you should be able to load as many rounds as I have without a single problem. Probably in excess of 6k in 9mm alone this past year. Load and enjoy.
 
So Skip you are saying that you guys with progressive presses are eyeballing every round you make to see if it has enough powder and can tell if it is off?
I know there are powder alarms but who much does it take before the alarm sounds?

The only time I look into each case was when I batch loaded on a reloading tray. If I did that now on a turret press I would crank out 20 rounds an hour.

I think I recall someone blowing up a gun using Titegroup;):confused:
 
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