soft lead wadcutters

hotrod150

hotrod150

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I'm not a big believer in the newer fancy-pants hollowpoint designs, my current 38 special load is a 158 gr SWC-HP but I'd like to try something different. Looking in my old Speer #8 reloading manual, I see that they used to make a swaged 148 gr bevel-base wadcutter, in addition to the hollow-base wadcutter. Apparently it was discontinued and all they make now is the HB version. I'd like to load up some full wadcutter self-defense loads, but the hollowbase bullets tend to have skirt separations when loaded up above light target velocities. I think you can avoid HBWC skirt separations by reverse-loading them, but then you get tumbling.
Does anyone manufacture a swaged or soft cast (not hardcast) bevel-base or double-end wadcutter?
 
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If a bullet is not going to expand, like a DEWC, it is better to have the bullet be hard, so it cuts and crushes tissue more effectively instead of the bullet deforming to accommodate the tissue.

Here is a great little article about full power wadcutters.
Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter | Reloading, Ammunition, Hunting | GrantCunningham.com

I load DEWC cast bullets, BHN 12, to 850 fps out of my 4" M-15. Also, soft lead bullets will start to lead when pushed hard, another good reason for going with a BHN of 12-15.
 
Try Rainer bullets. I have a bunch of there copper coated double ended wadcutters and they work great.
I load them at target vly in 38 spl and a little faster in 357 mag.
 
wadcutters

I bought a 1000 (2 boxes) of Hornady #1010 148gr BBWC and these work just fine. They are, however, kinda dirty in seating from the lube that was used in their manufacture.

I don't see much difference in accuracy (defense distances) between this and the still manufactured HBWC of the same weight and diameter (.358) which I load for.

Best results for target work so far, is seat them flush with rim
on top of 2.4grs Bullseye. (CCI or Remington small pistol primers).

Shot from a 342 and my 642-2 snubnosed .38spl.
 
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In my M49 snub nose I can get a nice mellow 148gr wc load
at 775fps with a energy of 197 ft/lbs and 3.99 ft/lbs of recoil.

I can also get a Rem SJHP at 898fps with 224 ft/lb energy and
4.21 ft/lbs of recoil in a +P loading.

Sort of a toss up...............
 
I used to load hardcast 148 gr DEWC's for self-defense purposes before switching to the 158gr soft SWC-HP. My thinking behind the soft wadcutter is 1) a full caliber frontal area for tissue damage, 2) no hollowpoint to possibly cause premature expansion and limit penetration, and 3) soft lead construction to give at least some potential for expansion.
 
I guess since Speer quit, no one is making a 38 caliber soft lead solid-base full wadcutter. Speer #10 book shows a max or 3.3 gr W231 with their 148 gr HBWC, and cautions against heavier loads because of the possibility of bullet deformation (skirt separation). Hornady book #3 shows a hotter load (4.2 W231) but also says their wadcutters are not suitable for high velocity loads.
I'd like to load some warmish soft-lead full wadcutters, but don't want to have a problem. I was poking around online recently and happened upon the Magtech website which has a page showing their 148 gr WC which apparently is available as a component. It is a hollowbase design also, but the cavity is sort of cone-shaped which leads me to believe that it would be less likely to separate & leave the skirts behind.
Nobody seems to have 148 gr wadcutters in stock, but I was wondering if anyone has loaded the magtech bullets & what they thought of them?
 
What's the need for soft wadcutters? If you're wanting expansion, you'll prolly want a fast light hollow point. If you want a lot of tissue damage from a full caliber meplat, any good alloy will do fine. My house gun is loaded with cast wheel weight alloy, 150 gr. DEWC over a stiff load of W231. I'm confident my loads will work fine in a personal defense situation where I will get good tissue destruction, shock, with little over penetration (I have neighbors). Before I started casting I bought cast bullets from Beartooth Bullets...
 
There are many manufacturers...

There are many manufacturers of double end WCs. I'm dealing with Penn Bullets now and they have a 100 gr. (?) and 148 grain in .38. I've done a little searching for a swaged BBWC but haven't turned up anything.
 
rwsmith said:
There are many manufacturers of double end WCs. I'm dealing with Penn Bullets now and they have a 100 gr. (?) and 148 grain in .38. I've done a little searching for a swaged BBWC but haven't turned up anything.
Click to expand...

check here
Roze Distribution: 38 SPECIAL (.357 DIAMETER)

mostly out of stock - but its a supplier reference for the future
search boatbum's posts here - he uses these ZERO Brand bullets in a M52

I'm still using HDY swaged - half dollar sized groups at 25 yards
 
Penn Bullets appear to be hardcast. The Roze bullets indeed appear to be swaged, but unfortunately are out of stock.
Here's my thinking on soft wadcutters: I want a full caliber flat nose for punching in, not slipping in like a round nose. I currently load a soft 158gr SWC-HP, but even though its got a full diameter shoulder the bullet nose is tapered so don't nknow if it'll punch in or slip in. I want the bullet to penetrate, and hopefully expand some also. Given the choice, I consider penetration more important than expansion. I don't want to use a light fast hollowpoint (as mikld suggests) because I don't trust them to penetrate and not over-expand.
Milkd, what's your idea of "a stiff load of W231" behind a 150 gr WC? I used to load a 148 gr hardcast DEWC over 4.5 gr W231 before I decided I wanted at least the possibility of expansion & switched to the 158 gr lead SWC-HP.
 
I use .38 Special MATCH 148gr. Full WADCUTTER's from Double Tap for carry in my M442 and M60. These are hard cast, non plus P, but are stouter than Target WC's. 740 fps from a 2 inch and 800 fps from a 4 inch barrel. I like the hard, sharp edge. WC's work by cutting a channel, like a broadhead arrow. Old school but reliable.
For practice, I use 148 gr plated WC's over HP38.
Unfortunately, the WC's print high in my fixed sight guns, but I will compensate.
I was looking at the base of a 158 gr XTP recently, and noting that it had a sharp edge and flat base. So, of course, I started thinking about loading some backwards. Thinking was as far as I got, but I wish someone made double ended WC's with that kind of jacket. Much sharper edges than the plated WC's that I have used.
I think that it is necessary to decide between the cutting action of WC's, and iffy expansion of a HP. If a soft WC expands just a little, and I think that is the most that can be hoped for, it is likely to to lose its cutting ability, without gaining much in expansion.
I think HP's work best in rifles. Small, high velocity bullets that fly flat and convert retained energy into expansion at the target. In handguns, they work well in jello.

Best,
Rick
 
The Hornady #1010 DEWC that Jonf mentioned is apparently discontinued. I took another look online at the Penn 148 DBBWC, it is indeed described as soft cast as rwsmith noted. It is a full wadcutter but I wonder about a bevelled leading end being less effective at cutting a wound channel than one with sharp-corners? Like riverrat said, it seems like a sharper edge would cause more damage.
I also re-read the Ed Harris article (linked in the second post) about full-charge wadcutter loads. Good writing and food for thought. I might yet go back to hardcast WC's, although ideally one with a sharp-cornered leading edge rather than bevelled.
 
Yet another good reason to take up casting your own. Commercial bullet availability is driven by the vagaries of the market. I have a half dozen or so different wadcutter molds and can be in production in about a half hour or so.
 
Many years ago, there was a movement to 148 gr. HBWC seated in reverse creating a very large HP cavity. Seated over somewhere around 5 gr. Unique was touted as a close in defense load that wouldn't penetrate home walls. I know I made some up and shot into some water jugs, and they did a real number but didn't penetrate the jug fully. They weren't accurate much beyond 7-10 yards, which was deemed O.K. as it was within the confines of a normal room.
 
I started a thead about reverse-loaded HBWC's a few weeks ago. An old Combat Handguns magazine I ran across had an article about that. The author tried it & found that they tumbled, both in flight & after impact. He tried seating a single BB shot in the cavity & found that moved the center of gravity forward enough to stablize the bullet. He made up some BB-enhanced wadcutters by pressing the shot into place (which swelled the HB of the bullet) and then using a bullet-sizing die to resize the bullet to the proper diameter. An awful lot fofwork, but he reported good accuracy with awesome expansion. That article is what got me thinking about full-charge soft lead wadcutters.
 
hotrod150 said:
Penn Bullets appear to be hardcast. The Roze bullets indeed appear to be swaged, but unfortunately are out of stock.
Here's my thinking on soft wadcutters: I want a full caliber flat nose for punching in, not slipping in like a round nose. I currently load a soft 158gr SWC-HP, but even though its got a full diameter shoulder the bullet nose is tapered so don't nknow if it'll punch in or slip in. I want the bullet to penetrate, and hopefully expand some also. Given the choice, I consider penetration more important than expansion. I don't want to use a light fast hollowpoint (as mikld suggests) because I don't trust them to penetrate and not over-expand.
Milkd, what's your idea of "a stiff load of W231" behind a 150 gr WC? I used to load a 148 gr hardcast DEWC over 4.5 gr W231 before I decided I wanted at least the possibility of expansion & switched to the 158 gr lead SWC-HP.
Click to expand...

Don't quote me on this; I use the same 4.5 gr. load, which is a hair over max. according to my Lyman manual. I shoot a bunch in my 4" 357, but only a few in my 2" 38, just to keep familiar with the load in my house gun. From my limited research this load would penetrate gel about 12"-13" and not expand (I didn't do the testing myself but researched it on-line). If I were to use this load in a human target at "belly gun distances" I would be pretty confident it would be a good fight stopper, not as good as my 45 ACP (my desk gun), but for my needs it'll work...

I'm not a ballistician nor a combat vet (not military but Mas Ayoob type) but my research tell me a 158 gr LSWCHP at .38 Special velocities will act much like a solid RNFP. The shoulders of SWC don't cut flesh as it's pushed away by the nose and a lead hollow point would have to be pretty soft for any expansion. I don't have my research info nearby, and it's all what I've read on forums, texts, and manuals so all this is just opinion; FWIW...
 
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I've always looked upon wad cutters as target ammo. For self defense there are many choices tested and proven by the FBI and numerous police agencies. I've never heard of a LEO carrying a wad cutter.
 
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