.50-70 New to Black Powder Reloading

So I ended coming home with a springfield 1866 the other day from the LGS which was marked and believed by all in the store including myself to be an 1873 springfield. Since I didn't not discover that for myself until I got home and did more research, I have now entered into big bore reloading territory (normally would research before buying but the deal was too good). I'm wanting to do blackpowder reloads as smokeless might be too rough on the old gun and I've been wanting to get into blackpowder.

I have a few questions though:

1. the X-Y cartridges mean Y grains of blackpowder historically, but does this still apply to modern black powders? For example, the '66 is in .50-70, so would 70grns goex be acceptable as well.

2. I hear that you don't want air in BP cartridges, is this true? If so, why?

3. Which blackpowder would you recommend, I've heard goex is just okay that there are other better powders but I want some opinions.

Also does anyone know of a good place that has .515 diameter bullets in stock? They seem pretty hard to find, might be time to start casting.

Question 1. Yes it still applies. Black powder and it's equivalents are all suppose to have the same burn rate or they wouldn't be able to be used as substitutes for the original.
Question 2. Yes, you do NOT want any air in black powder cases or in a muzzle loader barrel. I don't know the physics behind it but it is creating a bomb when there is a void of air between the bullet and the powder. With a muzzle loader I have double charged mine different times and put a bullet on top of the powder. As long as the bullet is tight against the powder it can't burn fast enough to over pressure anything. What doesn't burn just blows out the end of the barrel. Leave an air space in there and it burns way to fast and the pressure goes way up. Your 50-70 loads need to be compressed loads so that doesn't happen. Same as muzzles loaders. By the way, you do know not to use a powder measure like an RCBS Uniflow or any other cast iron or steel powder thrower. Black powder measure/throwers are mostly aluminum and/or brass or some kind of non-ferris metal that won't make a spark.
Question 3. I don't know what the latest and greatest black powder substitute is right now. I know the substitute black powders were made to try to clean up the smoke and fouling, and not be so hygroscopic (attract and hold moisture).

Can't help with the slugs.

Thanks.

Yeah, no sparks, I like living with all fingers. I'm going to stick to actual BP not substitutes. I'll have to look around some more for the physics part of the air / BP cartridge but glad to see it won't be an issue.

Actual black powder works much better in the older guns than does the substitutes. It has to be compressed about 1/8" or more when seating the bullet. You will get much better results by using a long drop tube of 12-18" when charging your cases. Use dippers or a black powder specific measure.

Bullet lube must be soft and SPG seems to work best. Air in the cartridge can well lead to damage to the gun.

Modern brass has less capacity than the old balloon head cases. You will be unable to get 70 grains in a 50-70 case. Although black powder ignites easier, magnum primers seem to give the best results. Because so much black powder is unburnt after the shot, you don't have to worry about charge differences of a grain or two when loading.

Good luck. I suggest you spend some time on the 'net, particularly castboolits.com, before starting this endeavor.

Powder Inc online has several choices in bp brands. I have used the Schuetzen brand for a long time and it works well. Cowboy action bullet suppliers may have what you need, and a soft alloy 20-1 at minimum, and 25-1 even better. Homemade lube works well such as 50% beeswax, 40% Crisco, 10% vegetable oil. Magnum primers not necessary and most long range bpcr shooters use a standard primer, some an over primer paper wad, or a large pistol primer as their thinking a more moderate power primer leads to best accuracy. I use only standard primers, and all is well for ignition.

As noted your charges will need to be compressed. Take a look online and you'll find that there are Powder Swaging dies available that are intended to specifically compress a black powder charge prior to inserting the bullet.

BTW, stumbled on that looking for a press mounted push through swaging die to allow re-sizing .357 bullets to 9mm diameter. While I don't currently own or load a 9mm some forward thinking had me looking into using 38 caliber plated bullets for 9mm in a pinch and a carbide die to swage the diameter slightly would have been ideal for that task.

jmmitc06 said:

Thanks.

Yeah, no sparks, I like living with all fingers. I'm going to stick to actual BP not substitutes. I'll have to look around some more for the physics part of the air / BP cartridge but glad to see it won't be an issue.

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It is because of the shock wave being reflected off the base of the bullet can cause ringing of the chamber at the base of the bullet. Strictly has to do with the burning characteristics of black powder. If using fillers, the charge+filler still has to be compressed. You cannot use Dacron etc. without risking damage.

Definitely use real black powder, not the substitutes.

Lyman sells .50-70 dies for the same price as their standard dies instead of $200 or more for RCBS. (At least they did! Not in the catalog now.) Try CH-4D too.

Lee and Lyman sell a mould for the .50-70. Lyman's is a bit light though. It is #515141. Lee's is 515-450-F. SPG is excellent for a lube and was designed for black powder.

Brass can be difficult, try Dixie Gun Works or Buffalo Arms. Buffalo sells bullets too.

Where are the pictures???? Show us yours and I will show you mine! (1866 Springfield that is!!)


Scooter,

Just buy a Lee .356 "Lube & Sizing" kit. Lube your bullets with case sizing lube before sizing! Works just fine.

Take a look at the Buffalo Arms site, or just order their catalog. Hard to find a better outfit for black powder cartridge guns.

Perhaps one of the most important things about Black Powder Cartridge reloading is LUBE. Often you sacrifice a little powder capacity for an over the powder card with a lube "cookie", in the name of softer fouling. Another way to add lube to your shooting is to have a container of Crisco or lard to dip the projectile of the cartridge like a potatoe (note the Dan Quail spelling) chip. I have a Frankenstein rolling block in 50 Carbine (50-50 or 50-45) and use a Dixie bullet mould that the sprue must be cut off with side cutters. The weigh in at 425 grains. I cast with 100% lead, but think 30:1 would give good results. I leave these unsized and pan lube with SPG. My cases are cut down Dixie's (about 30 years old now) and use a WLR (Winchester Large Rifle) primer. By using a 18" to 24" drop tube for your powder, it will automatically compress the powder. In single shot rifles, the crimp is not needed to be any tighter than to hold the round together until fired, however if you want to experiment with crimp tension you will find a crimp that produces superior accuracy. At this time the substitute powders are not up to the consistency of Black Powder and you need to clean as soon and as much. Do enjoy shooting you prize. Ivan

About twenty years ago I had a 50/70 rifle. I ordered some shell casings from Dixie Gun Works, bought a Lyman mold and used Goex FFg. Leave just enough space in the case to seat the bullet slightly compressing the powder and enjoy the smoke and stink. I don't have the rifle anymore but I still have the mold. Drop me a PM if you are interested in it.

Tidbits

The designation .50-70 indicates 70 grains of BP as originally designed. Fact is that the original casings had a much thinner web area than modern ones. (To get 70 grains in a modern case you would have to 'stomp' it down in a press.) Thus, current cases hold less of a charge. .50-70 cases $32.99/20

If it is in fact a 1873 Springfield "trapdoor" it is among the 'weaker' designs of the old actions. For instance if you have a (good) Winchester hi-wall, you can load the devil out of it with BP safely. ie: BP compression in a .45-70 can be heavy indeed, even over say, a 'kicker' of Re-7 (duplex).

With a trapdoor action, if'n I were you, I'd go easy on it and hold the bullet weight down to be safe!

By the way Swiss black powder is about the KING in match accuracy...

OP, I know you have stated that you think smokeless would be too hard on the old girl, but if you can find some AA 5744, you owe it to yourself to try that powder. The Accurate Arms loading manual will give you the load data, I believe, and if it doesn't, call Mr. Joubert at Western Powders.

FWIW, I have a #3 Rolling Block in 45-70 and years ago I called Ted Curtis at Accurate Arms to ask what loads would be safe in it. I was told that was a "class 2" action, and was given a range of 5744 to use behind the 1:20 RCBS 45-500 BPS bullet. It wasn't necessary (or so I was told), but I used a wafer of florist foam to hold the powder against the primer in the large case, and at the time, if I did my part (my eyes aren't that good any more...) I could cut holes at 100 yards. The projectiles were un-sized and lubed with Emmert; primer was a CCI-200 and I used 27 grains of 5744.

A different bird somewhat from your 50-70, but don't count out AA 5744. It is absolutely magnificent in the old BP cases, in my estimation.

Black powder comes in several granulations for different uses. Burning rates are controlled by granule size, with the finer granulations being faster burning (another term that might be appropriate would be detonative).

1. FFFg, very fine granulation suitable for handguns and rifles to about .45 caliber.

2. FFg, moderately fine granulation suitable for rifle calibers above .45.

3. Fg, fairly coarse granulation primarily for very large bore fowling pieces, small cannons, etc.

4. There is also an extremely fine granulation sometimes called "meal" powder. This is essentially a blasting powder, although some use it as a priming powder in flintlocks.

FFg would be most appropriate for the .50-70, and a charge weight of about 70 grains is the standard load with just about any appropriate bullet weight.

Slugging your barrel will provide the best information for bullet selection. Back in the days when this rifle was made there were much greater variations in actual bore and groove dimensions. Also, the usual practice was to use very soft bullets, usually pure lead, and allow the pressures generated by powder discharge to expand the bullet into the rifling. If the bore is roughly pitted (many will be found that way) you may get better results with bullets cast with a harder lead alloy, such as wheelweights.

As others have commented, good bullet lubricant is necessary to keep the black powder residue soft. Otherwise the bore can foul very quickly and accuracy can be expected to drop off sharply. There are commercial black powder lubes available that are pretty good. I have used pure white lithium grease for years in BP cartridge guns. Can be found in small squeeze tubes (about 4 oz. or so) at the auto parts stores. Easily applied to the bullet lube grooves with the fingers, and very inexpensive (one tube will lube a thousand rounds or more). Good results can also be had with Crisco shortening.

I would try out a few different cast bullets from the manufacturers to see what the rifle likes before investing in a bullet mold. With a good mold matched to your rifle you can cast excellent bullets using plain lead and a bit of tin (up to 1-in-10 parts), which increases fluidity in the molten metal, making it easier to fill the mold consistently and get better castings.

Black powder residue attracts and holds moisture like nothing else. The rifle will require cleaning after every shooting session, and this should not be put off more than a very few hours. Cleaning rod with tight-fitting patch can be run through the bore into a bucket of boiling water with a little dish soap, and a few passes should remove the powder fouling. Follow with a few patches and clean boiling water rinse and that usually does the trick. Bore can be mopped with oil between uses, but if so that needs to be wiped out before shooting again.

By the way, I shoot black powder loads in .45-70, .45-90, .45 Sharps Express, and a few other 19th Century pieces. Had a .50 Spencer breechloader years ago. I also have a mid-19th Century Pennsylvania caplock rifle that I continue to shoot. They're all fun.

Thanks for all of the advice. I will post a picture(s) of the gun as requested after my exam and I clean it lol. The background story on how I got it is pretty interesting IMO, I got a craving for a .45/70 while I was at shooter's supply checking out the massive bullets it requires. My friend who was with me pointed out that a local gun store had one for cheap so we drove out there and the owner was eager to sell it since it had been there for over a year. Gave me 20% off, impulse bought it since it was marked as a 73 in .45-70 was fully functional and with a good bore (given it's age). Cosmetically they look similar and I wasn't as well versed in those firearms as others so when I got home and started researching things just didn't make sense, missing serial numbers, unusual placement of sling point, etc. took about an hour to determine what I actually had and honestly I'm glad it worked out that way. .50-70 is the same large bore, heavy bullet rifle I was wanting but even more so than the .45-70

Looks like casting is the way to go for bullets although they are available, it seems the most economical and convenient for both this rifle and my martini-henry (for which I do not currently reload, have 2 rounds left :/ ). Powder recommendations were great, I will look around for swiss powder but I know goex is available in town. I will try some smokeless after I get the BP stuff down, mainly interested in BP as a way to learn a new field in reloading. Thanks for the links for the brass. (to the person who asks about their mold, I will have to let you know, I'm in the process of moving right now so not purchasing anything if I can help it.)

The proposed mechanism for damage by air in the cartridge makes sense to me, I knew not to do it but I always like knowing the theory as well.

jmmitc06,

One caution with the Model 1866. This is not the same action as the later Model 1873! The 1873 has a receiver which the barrel is screwed into. The 1866 was a modification of the earlier .58 caliber Springfield Model 1863 muzzle loading rifle. The breech end of the barrel was milled open to leave an open channel like the later 1873. A hinge piece was then Lead soldered and screwed to the top of the barrel and a .50 cal. liner silver soldered into the barrel. When I got mine the solder joint had failed and all that was holding the hinge was the screws. Naturally it was not fired until I had re-soldered the hinge.

The Model 1866 is known as the 2nd Allin Conversion. The 1st Allin Conversion was basically the same in concept but chambered for the .58 Musket Rimfire cartridge. This was early on discovered to cause too many problems and the .50-70 cartridge was developed.

Alk8944 said:

jmmitc06,

One caution with the Model 1866. This is not the same action as the later Model 1873! The 1873 has a receiver which the barrel is screwed into. The 1866 was a modification of the earlier .58 caliber Springfield Model 1863 muzzle loading rifle. The breech end of the barrel was milled open to leave an open channel like the later 1873. A hinge piece was then Lead soldered and screwed to the top of the barrel and a .50 cal. liner silver soldered into the barrel. When I got mine the solder joint had failed and all that was holding the hinge was the screws. Naturally it was not fired until I had re-soldered the hinge.

The Model 1866 is known as the 2nd Allin Conversion. The 1st Allin Conversion was basically the same in concept but chambered for the .58 Musket Rimfire cartridge. This was early on discovered to cause too many problems and the .50-70 cartridge was developed.

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Thanks for the advice. I checked this and it appears to be fine.