Flat Primers in factory 22-250

ageingstudent

ageingstudent

Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
593
Reaction score
414
Location
NW Oregon
I attached a few pics of some 22-250 factory once fired brass from my Savage. Not picking on that brand of ammo in the picture because I notice that most factory ammo I shoot looks similar, with the exception of UMC for some reason. My handloads usually don't flatten and crater like this until I get to within a few tenths of max. It's so consistent I have come to feel it is normal, but I thought I might put it up here and see what fellow 22-250 handloaders think. I get a few split necks from factory fresh ammo too, probably 1 in 40 rounds. Is the factory stuff just loaded up near max? I definently get more felt recoil and the rifle jumps more with factory loads. Appreciate any thoughts, thanks.
 

Attachments

  • CAM00548.jpg
    CAM00548.jpg
    30.7 KB · Views: 183
  • CAM00551.jpg
    CAM00551.jpg
    27.9 KB · Views: 184
Register to hide this ad
Most factory loads are near maximum. Because the simple fact is that people tend to purchase ammunition for the Numbers, always have to have the hottest and baddest load around. However, it's a near certainty that any major brand will probably have developed pressures at least 5% below the maximum for that caliber, because they don't want the risk of the liability of blowing up someones firearm with a fatal result.

There are a couple of things that may be going on here.

1) Is excess headspacing in your rifles chamber. The ignition process has multiple stages with a distinct sequence of events. First the firing pin strike the primer and this impact drives the cartridge forward until the shoulder on the case contacts the front of the chamber. Next the primer ignites and the burning gases compound produces enough pressure in the primer cavity to drive the primer slightly out of the primer pocket until it hits the breech face. Next the powder charge in the case starts burning and the bullet is started moving out of the case. As a result of this the case is driven back to the breech face and the primer is "recaptured" in the primer pocket. When there is excess headspace in the chamber the extra movement of the primer out then back into the primer pocket can cause signs of excess pressure. One clue to this being the cause of "flattened primers" is to determine how much the cases is "stretching" on firing. Because excess case stretch is a definite indicator of excess headspace.

2) There is a possibility that your barrel has a defect that is causing a pressure spike or you may have a bore that is a bit undersize. In order to identify if this is the issue and examination of the interior of the barrel with a bore scope and basic gaging of the bore by a gunsmith will be necessary. BTW, a good gunsmith would also be able to gage your chamber to determine if the headspace is within specification.
 
thanks scooter...

N
scooter123 said:
Most factory loads are near maximum. Because the simple fact is that people tend to purchase ammunition for the Numbers, always have to have the hottest and baddest load around. However, it's a near certainty that any major brand will probably have developed pressures at least 5% below the maximum for that caliber, because they don't want the risk of the liability of blowing up someones firearm with a fatal result.

There are a couple of things that may be going on here.

1) Is excess headspacing in your rifles chamber. The ignition process has multiple stages with a distinct sequence of events. First the firing pin strike the primer and this impact drives the cartridge forward until the shoulder on the case contacts the front of the chamber. Next the primer ignites and the burning gases compound produces enough pressure in the primer cavity to drive the primer slightly out of the primer pocket until it hits the breech face. Next the powder charge in the case starts burning and the bullet is started moving out of the case. As a result of this the case is driven back to the breech face and the primer is "recaptured" in the primer pocket. When there is excess headspace in the chamber the extra movement of the primer out then back into the primer pocket can cause signs of excess pressure. One clue to this being the cause of "flattened primers" is to determine how much the cases is "stretching" on firing. Because excess case stretch is a definite indicator of excess headspace.

2) There is a possibility that your barrel has a defect that is causing a pressure spike or you may have a bore that is a bit undersize. In order to identify if this is the issue and examination of the interior of the barrel with a bore scope and basic gaging of the bore by a gunsmith will be necessary. BTW, a good gunsmith would also be able to gage your chamber to determine if the headspace is within specification.
Click to expand...

I am thinking I don't see this with my handloads because I neck size and only bump the shoulder once on the 3rd loading and pitch the brass after the 5th or 6th load. This would possibly confirm a headspace issue would it not? On the other hand, I haven't seen a ring near the base in any of the brass in well over 500 of my handloads. Plus I rarely shoot near max because I get better accuracy closer to the middle and the darn thing is too loud with max or factory loads.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to have it checked and measured. I do know a guy.
 
My friends and I have a combined total of 14 Savage (3 personally) actioned rifles we use on Target shooting. Without doing measurements on your rifle's chamber, it is impossible to be 100% sure, but it appears that the Firing Pin Hole in the Bolt Face is a little oversize. We have found this to be fairly normal (or as designed). There are 3 solutions That I am aware of; 1) Do nothing. It hasn't hurt anything yet. 2) Have the Firing Pin Hole, "Bushed". A competent gunsmith closes the hole usually by welding and drills a new , smaller hole, often with a reduction in Firing Pin diameter. This runs a little over $170 and about 1 month turn around. One of my rifles has this and it is very nice. 3) Savage offers from their parts department a heavier Firing Pin Spring, This cures the cratering problem, the trigger will need readjusted (required on the bushing solution also). Cost with freight: Less than $20. Time: an hour or 2. This will require a barrel wise to hold the Bolt Body for non-destructive bolt disassembly. The thin Bolt Walls will collapse if not properly supported the first time you undo the factory torqued Allen nut/screw at the rear. (Somebody in every group of Savage shooters should have a barrel vise, barrels are so easy to change it becomes a 20 minute job to swap to a new barrel/cartridge). You are already safe. It just becomes how much accuracy you want to get out of your action. My Model 12 in 223, (has bushed bolt face) and a better stock and bedding gets sub 3" 3 shot groups at 1000 yards and no fly on a target is safe out to about 400-450 yards. My Model 10 BAS is stock factory, and never cratered my primers on ammo (factory or handload) and will do pretty consistent 4 to 5 inch groups @ 1000. There is nothing like watching a bunch of people miss an empty pop can or cigarette pack @ 500 or 600 yards, Then you say, "Can I try?" and you put a hole in it the first shot! Have fun. Ivan

You Name is ageingstudent, how old are you? I pushing 59 and had mid-terms last night, in my first quarter of my senior year of college. You're never too old to learn and every day you learn something is a good day! Ivan
 
Ivan the Butcher said:
You Name is ageingstudent, how old are you? I pushing 59 and had mid-terms last night, in my first quarter of my senior year of college. You're never too old to learn and every day you learn something is a good day! Ivan
Click to expand...

Congratulations, Ivan. I found it rough enough at 19. I can't imagine doing it at now at 62.

Back to the original question - looks like max chamber. Max neck would account for the occasional splits. As mentioned, factory ammo is usually loaded hot and stuffed in minimal cases. Most of the factory cases in various calibers that I have measured over the years have actually been at SAAMI minimum or a bit less.
 
They look pretty warm. Maybe your gun has a tighter chamber or even bore than most factory rifles. Factory ammo is designed for every conceivable scenario...tight like yours probably is, to others with sloppy over sized chambers. I don't think I'd shoot that stuff again in your rifle....the pressure signs are very clear. You could pull the bullets and powder, and reload them yourself with something more fitting for your rifle. You could also measure to see if just maybe, those bullets are seated a bit too deep?..that would increase pressure. If so, pulling and reseating could be a cure.
 
Last edited:
The crater made by the firing pin does show pressure signs.....
but the edges of the primer next to the brass case still shows a round corner that is not totally flattened and married to the case...........
so there is still a little lee way on that load but it is up there !!

You might also have the face of your firing pin checked if you take it in.

Good luck.
 
They are a little flat. How was bolt lift? I don't see ejector marks, so I wouldn't be too concerned. Every rifle chamber is slightly diff. If your throat is on the short side, this could easily raise pressures. Check OAL with relation to your chamber, see if the bullet is too close to the lands. The split cases, **** happens, even with good factory ammo. If it is the same manuf, same lot, same 1-40, then I would suspect the ammo.
 
You Name is ageingstudent said:
All good info there to consider Ivan. I am 47 and just finished up a couple of lower division degrees. It was something I always wanted to do. I liked school a lot more in my 40's than my teens and 20's. I wasn't after anything in particular just education. Loved physics and chemistry. Liked it all in fact.
Click to expand...
 
MichiganScott said:
Congratulations, Ivan. I found it rough enough at 19. I can't imagine doing it at now at 62.

Back to the original question - looks like max chamber. Max neck would account for the occasional splits. As mentioned, factory ammo is usually loaded hot and stuffed in minimal cases. Most of the factory cases in various calibers that I have measured over the years have actually been at SAAMI minimum or a bit less.
Click to expand...

I think the chamber is probably a bit big too. It is a run of the mill Savage axis bone stock. It would explain why factory loads behave this way but my handloads do not. Also, the S&B pictured were the softest shooting factory ammo I have used to date and that's why I posted. The only factory ammo Ishoot that doesn't do this is UMC.
 
MJFlores said:
They look pretty warm. Maybe your gun has a tighter chamber or even bore than most factory rifles. Factory ammo is designed for every conceivable scenario...tight like yours probably is, to others with sloppy over sized chambers. I don't think I'd shoot that stuff again in your rifle....the pressure signs are very clear. You could pull the bullets and powder, and reload them yourself with something more fitting for your rifle. You could also measure to see if just maybe, those bullets are seated a bit too deep?..that would increase pressure. If so, pulling and reseating could be a cure.
Click to expand...

I have noticed that the factory ammo is wayyy shorter and seated deeper. Factory OAL with a 60 gr nosler partition (made by Federal) is usually about 2.325" and with the same bullet I seat mine to 2.460" and that puts the ogive at .010" freebore. To me that is a considerable difference but this is the only 22-250 I have so I have nothing to go on except all your experience...which I appreciate. I have developed several surprisingly accurate loads of my own, that function super good and show no pressure signs at all. The factory loads frustrate me though. Possibly an excuse to buy another one haha.
 
Nevada Ed said:
The crater made by the firing pin does show pressure signs.....
but the edges of the primer next to the brass case still shows a round corner that is not totally flattened and married to the case...........
so there is still a little lee way on that load but it is up there !!

You might also have the face of your firing pin checked if you take it in.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Yeah I am going to take it in and have it looked at. It wouldn't surprise me if the firing pin hole was oversized. The savage axis is big time mass produced so I would expect tolerances to be moderately loose. I got the darned thing from my dad but now I am addicted to shooting and loading for it. It really vaporizes gophers and jugs of water.
 
fredj338 said:
They are a little flat. How was bolt lift? I don't see ejector marks, so I wouldn't be too concerned. Every rifle chamber is slightly diff. If your throat is on the short side, this could easily raise pressures. Check OAL with relation to your chamber, see if the bullet is too close to the lands. The split cases, **** happens, even with good factory ammo. If it is the same manuf, same lot, same 1-40, then I would suspect the ammo.
Click to expand...

No never had a hard bolt. Pops right open and ejects the empty brass just fine. And I never get ejector marks either, or rings near the web. It's just the flat primers with that crater. I seem to get about 1 case in 40 across the board with neck splits in all factory ammo except UMC and S&B. I am going to get it checked out just to be safe though.
 
Last edited:
oldman10mm said:
looks normal,as was said above,edge of primer still rounded,don't see any extractor hole brass flow. 22-250 is an intense cartridge.
Click to expand...

Yes and the primers don't look mushroomed after removal. I have read that that is a further indication of pressure issues. It is a hyperactive over-caffinated cartridge for sure. Gets there in a hurry and really blows the heck out of stuff.
 
As a note;

most rifles do not need a 100% load and will do just as good with 98% power.

My 22-250 does great in the accuracy department with a 55gr
doing just 3,000 fps at ten feet.

A reduced load of 35grs of IMR 4350 works with 52 to 60gr bullets in my rifle, for some odd reason.

Max is not always the best...........and a lot easier on both of you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Narragansett
  • Locked
Looking for 22-250 Factory ammo ** CLOSE PLEASE**
Replies
0
Views
346
Narragansett
Narragansett
Narragansett
Target 22 Selection ( Follow UP )
2 3
Replies
40
Views
2K
Baxter6551
Baxter6551
chief38
My experience & opinion as to costs of reloading now days.
2 3
Replies
58
Views
2K
David Sinko
D
D
Ammo brands you avoid
2 3 4
Replies
79
Views
7K
Matt_X
M
M
7.62x39 Handload Suggestions? (Bolt action)
Replies
12
Views
722
Mike SC Hunter
M

Latest posts

Back
Top